Suggestions On How To Sell My LR4 (Sad Day)

[Stealther]

It happens, we all are in different phases of life - you might be back! I'm in the market for a set of Compomotives - let me know if you decide to sell.

 

[danrhiggins]

OK. Time to come clean. No, not a truck. It wouldn't fit in our garage or on some of the trails we do. And would not be as good a road trip vehicle. Though I must admit I have had many, many people who pull trailers similar to ours tell me the only way to make everything right is to pull our 5500-6000 lbs trailer with a 3/4 or larger truck, with a wheel base that is nearly 4' longer, rated for 10,000# and upgraded suspension and diesel. No doubt using a bigger hammer would make a difference. But then the 95% of the time we're not pulling around a trailer we would need to be driving a big honkin' truck!

No. No truck. We would most likely go with a (c'mon Higgins, spit it out, cough, cough) a, uhmm, Land Cruiser. What? You're doing what? But you hate the interior of the Land Cruiser. Yes, yes I do. And it is even more stupid with the ugly, obtrusive rear entertainment screens they added "in your face" this year.

So why?

Here are the documented differences in trailer ratings and recommendations from the manufacturer. And other relevant info.

______________________My LR4__________2016 LC
Max trailer weight .............7716#............8100# w/ SAE Certification
Max tongue weight..............550#....................850#
OK to use a WD hitch...........???.............Very highly recommended
OK to use anti-sway.............OK?............Very Highly Recommended
Engine ............................ SCV6....................5.7L V8
Engine torque.....................332.......................401
Engine HP .........................340.......................381
Transmission....................8-speed.................8-speed
Hitch Receiver ....................Plug-In.......Built Into Frame (Class IV)

Bottom line - thinking only about towing our trailer (and this has become a much higher priority in the last couple months) we will have a stronger engine, an integrated hitch receiver, 850# of tongue weight which will enable me to weight the front end more to keep it towing better, and Toyota highly recommend (require) in their owners manual that you run with anti-sway and weight distribution hitches above certain trailer weights.

This is NOT to suggest that the LR4 is not a good towing machine! It is superior in its class. And it will be awesome for people with trailers in the 3-4K range loaded where the hitch weight could remain under 550 and still front load it enough to help it behave. When you get to our size (5,000 lbs dry and can be loaded up to 6,000) questions begin to arise. We simply got tired of worrying about the questions and though there were a myriad of opinions on what is actually possible and lots of people who have not had any issues and a couple of solutions that people have offered to address part of the problem (after market hitch receivers) none left us feeling entirely comfortable.

But we love our new trailer. So it is likely that our beloved LR4 will be passed to someone else and we'll be stuck with a Land Cruiser (if I can get a decent deal) at some point in the future.

To "work around" the disappointing intrusion of seats into the Land Cruiser cargo area I will likely remove the 3rd row and have ARB drawers installed. I may also install air bags in the rear suspension (inexpensive and adds a bit of support when towing). I may even have the gearing changed to be a bit lower but I want to see how the current setup works first. It comes with 18" wheels and 285/60 P-rated tires. I'll likely change those out for E-rated tires (probably KO2s) and do 65's if they fit. Maybe even a bit taller.

And, if this happens I will let you all know so you can bid on the Compos, Tires and the OEM hitch receiver (which is practically new.)

BTW, without doing any clean up (it was muddy) and with the cargo laid out flat and with all my gear on it I still had a dealer tell me what he would offer in trade today. $37,500. Just FYI.

 

[stew77]

Oh man Dan!

I am very sorry to hear that you are seriously considering moving away from your awesome LR4, but I'm not surprised to hear you talking about moving to a Landcruiser as your next vehicle. An awesomely capable and legendary vehicle for sure...at an even higher price point $$$ (although I'm not necessarily crazy about the looks, and I absolutely hate the 3rd row configuration of the Landcruiser for everyday use - a complete waste of space, utility, and visibility with those flip-up-and-to-the-side 3rd row seats...but I suppose one would get over that). Will no doubt be an awesome tow vehicle that will meet your needs, provide awesomely bulletproof reliability, and provide the off-road capabilities that you love so much with your LR4.

I'm truly scratching my head as to why you can't achieve a confident towing configuration with your LR4 and your new (and awesome) Lance camper, and that really bums me out, especially because we've met and have talked about different towing solutions for the LR4. The LR4 chassis is absolutely up to the task, so I'm blaming your WDH setup, but I'm no towing expert and only have my current towing experience to go on using my Equalizer Hitch for Weight Distribution and Sway Control (I, unfortunately, don't have experience with any other WDH systems). I suspect you've even thought about going back to your Hensley hitch setup? I am towing a longer and slightly heavier camper, so this all has me confused.

To get to this point, I have no doubt that you've thought about all the angles and possible solutions...and I haven't even been helpful in answering your question in this thread, have I?

To get to your question about selling, I agree with the other comments about going back to a close to stock configuration, but only IF you trade it in. If you decide to sell yourself, the right buyer may actually find your nice added goodies very appealing, especially here in Colorado. I want to remind you that you have a pretty rare used commodity in the LR4...just for grins, I did a search on cars.com for used 2014 LR4s within a 500 mile radius of northern Colorado, and only came up with 3 2014 LR4s for sale (pricing ranging from $43K-51K, but yours does have higher mileage than these listings, so your trade offer from today may not be too insulting).

Did I mention how bummed I am to hear that it has come to this? ...but I fully realize it has been a very hard decision for you too...

I wish you the best in whatever you decide to do, and if you do transition to the Landcruiser, I really do want to see some pics...including everything all hitched up.

 

[cperez]

Dan, I was gonna guess either a pickup or a Sequoia, so I wasn't too far off with one of my guesses. There's no doubt you'll gain a lot of confidence by removing all the question marks that currently bother you about the LR4's towing specs in relation to the Lance. Too bad you can't arrange things to keep the LR4 *and* get a LC!

 

[epiclr4]

Dan, sad to hear you are leaving the LR4 but I finally feel like the new LC is finally attractive inside and out. Only issue I have with them is the price tag. Granted, they last forever.

Look forward to seeing some pictures of what you finally end up with.

 

[mpinco]

Some thoughts .......

Some time in the past prior to the Lance - Dan: "......So my wife and I spent yesterday evening wondering if we bit off more than we should have with our trailer and that maybe we should downsize to a somewhat lighter trailer but more importantly a trailer with significantly lower hitch weight....."

Who then buys a Lance 2285, the largest of that Lance range and is pictured being towed by a crew cap full size pickup whose wheelbase is north of 130"

Quick comparison:

The LR4 and Land Cruiser have virtually the same wheelbase at 112/113"

LR OEM hitch issues easily addressed with aftermarket

Granted the LC has a large V8 but do torque curve match through the useful power range (factor in supercharger)

LC suspension is springs and requires WDH, LR is air and eliminates WDH

Anti-sway can be added to either. LR, depending on options likely eliminates need for mechanical anti-sway. LC requires mechanical. Item to consider: Trailer Stability Assist Inactive

In the end we have the large trailer vs. tow vehicle conundrum where the TV needs to be off-road capable. Off-road doesn't mean splashing "Off-Road" decals on the side.

Large trailers typically require large trucks and the associated wheelbase. True off-road capable vehicles work best with smaller trailers.

Realistically the only item your addressing by throwing money at a LC is the Air/WDH item?

 

[colorover]

Wow, LC. Had no idea they were above an LR4 for rating and tongue weight. Can you sold the latter with an aftermarket hitch? Air in the LR4 would seem better suited to deal with adjusting to heavier loads than a Crusher.

I don't care for the styling much either, let alone the 3rd "row", but they have come a long way with the 16 model year. I would seriously consider one for reliability and resale if we price of entry wasn't so high.

Good price for the LR4 without trying. Makes me feel letter about buying our '15. Curious to hear how this all goes, best of luck.

 

[mpinco]

....... I still had a dealer tell me what he would offer in trade today. $37,500. Just FYI.

Ouch

 

[machmike]

I just dumped my 2015 tundra with the 5.7L after less than a year. Toyota did not impress with that engine, I had more problems with that engine than any other car I have ever owned. I'm not sure how much different the seats are in the LC buy the Tundra seats were so wide you would have to weigh over 500 lbs to get any lateral support. Not to mention the Toyota and Lexus brand really make a cramped cockpit (for no apparent reason). Don't fool yourself that the 5.7L is typical reliable Toyota it isn't. We are a die hard Toyota and Ford family. The 5.7 does tow like a beast I must say.

I would go ask Toyota to borrow a LC for 24 hours. They will let you. Check out the seats, the cockpit (as they call it). I think you might have second thoughts. I would take one of the 2003 versions over the new ones if I were to consider a Toyota again.

Good luck on whatever you choose.

 

[danrhiggins]

Some thoughts .......

Some time in the past prior to the Lance - Dan: "......So my wife and I spent yesterday evening wondering if we bit off more than we should have with our trailer and that maybe we should downsize to a somewhat lighter trailer but more importantly a trailer with significantly lower hitch weight....."

Who then buys a Lance 2285, the largest of that Lance range and is pictured being towed by a crew cap full size pickup whose wheelbase is north of 130"

Guilty as charged! In fact it was your 19' Bullet that got us thinking that way. About a month later we looked at one that was on sale by a private owner. It didn't quite sell us for our longer term intended use but it got us thinking. I then came across the Lance brand. Though the 19' in that brand may have been OK, we decided that, again for our longer intended use - extended trips using RV parks and State Parks - we preferred the 2285. Then came the question of whether we could tow it comfortably. 6,000# max (we will likely be at 5,500#). Tongue weight then could be managed to between 650-750# to help mitigate trailer sway. Compared to our previous Roo Hybrid it is less weight, lower profile, lower suspension, more aerodynamic front end though about a foot longer. So, yeah, we just couldn't get excited about the 19' options.

Quick comparison:

The LR4 and Land Cruiser have virtually the same wheelbase at 112/113". Yep. And I have read many a thread that says the only proper tow vehicle is a truck with a longer wheelbase. Then the occasional few who counter that it is also important to consider the distance from the tow ball to the rear axle. And those how bought said truck and struggled until they either added air bags and/or adjusted their WD hitch appropriately. Of course a 1T diesel super crew would solve all of my towing issues. ;-)

LR OEM hitch issues easily addressed with aftermarket. I haven't found this to be as easy as I would prefer. The Rhino hitch may get there but just as I received mine I learned of weld issues with a couple in one of the batches. Plus, the receiver isn't deep enough to work with my Hensley anti-sway hitch bar. Dang.

Granted the LC has a large V8 but do torque curve match through the useful power range (factor in supercharger). I certainly haven't had an issue with my SCV6 and I don't know how much the 5.7L V8 will be effected by elevation. But the tongue curve for the V8 (peak at 3,600 RPM and 90% at 2,200 RPM) will work well for how I typically pull a trailer. (The "max tongue range" for the SCV6 is 3,500-5,000 according to the LR website. I prefer more torque lower in the range.) I did notice that the Toyota guidance is to not tow with overdrive so I would only be using the lower 6 gears when towing.

LC suspension is springs and requires WDH, LR is air and eliminates WDH. Ah, the air suspension vs WDH debate. I won't got there except to say that leveling the vehicle and distributing the weight are 2 related by different things. The primary purpose of WD is to redistribute some of the weight between the two TV axles and the trailer axle. Leveling the TV becomes an important byproduct but that could be achieved by a well implemented air suspension system like the LR has. What the AS does not provide is actual weight distribution (restoring more weight to the front axle/wheels. I saw an interesting video by one of the WD hitch manufacturers comparing axle weights for the front, rear and trailer axles when using air bags in the rear suspension of a truck vs using the WD system. The air bags brought the truck to level while the WD system redistributed the weight which in turn also brought the truck to level. But, there appears to be quite a discussion that LR does not want you using a WD system with their AS equipped vehicles. Again, uncertainty, lack of clarity from LR, and therefore doubts and questions remains fueled by lots of opinions and little fact-based explanations from the manufacturer.

Anti-sway can be added to either. LR, depending on options likely eliminates need for mechanical anti-sway. LC requires mechanical. Item to consider: Trailer Stability Assist Inactive Yes, I have seen the material on trailer stability assist. I'm not sure I am entirely comfortable with the approach for dealing with cross-wind initiated trailer sway. This is why I use a Hensley hitch which behaves differently than the typical, friction-based anti-sway. It uses different physics to create a "virtual" pivot point that is forward of the rear axle most of the time simulating to some degree the dynamics of a 5th wheeler. Very interesting videos of much smaller tow vehicles (Mercedes sedan, minivan) towing Airstreams through slalom course. I believe this will help mitigate some of the wheel base question.

In the end we have the large trailer vs. tow vehicle conundrum where the TV needs to be off-road capable. Off-road doesn't mean splashing "Off-Road" decals on the side. Absolutely. I am still walking a fine line here. Should we have gone with the 19" and thereby been able to keep our LR4? Possibly. But our future leans more towards towing and "mild" offroad than it does towards more "ambitious" off road. The LC is not an LR4. But the LC capabilities for the LC will be more than adequate for us.

Large trailers typically require large trucks and the associated wheelbase. True off-road capable vehicles work best with smaller trailers. No argument. Hoping the Hensley and the tow-ability of the Lance (CanAm RV, long considered experts in towing large Airstreams with a wide range of vehicles, consider the Lance trailers second only to an Airstream in tow-ability) will mitigate some of the wheelbase issue.

Realistically the only item your addressing by throwing money at a LC is the Air/WDH item? Actually, the number one item is the manufacturer-stated hitch weight of 550#s. Yes is a lot of debate and opinion and speculation as to why the hitch weight is so low on a vehicle that claims to be table to to 7,700#. (I would like to see is the 7,700# rating uses the new SAE testing standards buy I didn't find anything on that for the LR. When put through this testing process the LC went from 8,400# to 8,100#.) But at the end of the day I have simply become fed up with Land Rover's lack of clarity on this whole topic. Though I very much appreciate the input from forums like this, I became increasingly uncomfortable relying on people saying that because they used such and such and hadn't yet had a problem, or the Bob told Harry that Bill heard from Mark that he did such and such and it worked great. Or the, "I've never actually used such and such but I think... All this is well meaning and I do value the experience of others. But my experiences thus far had not been satisfactory given what we are hoping to do - maybe the impossible! At least Toyota do not hesitate in sharing the SAE tested ratings and documenting in writing in their owners manual that the maximum tow hitch weight is 850# and that you should definitely use an anti-sway for trailers over 3,000# and a WD hitch for trailers over 5,000#. Right or wrong, that makes me "feel" better.

Yikes, most of this just became a discussion of towing-related topics and maybe should be addressed there. But I don't want to bring up that I am considering a switch in any other threads.

BTW, the decision of what TV we will get is not final. We may look at a properly built out Ford 150. But that would be a far bigger stretch for us at this point.