All the battery posts got me scared ....

[email protected] said:

BByer, I am glad you chimed in. The CTEK US3300 was designed by the same engineer that is helping create North Star Batters. That is what is weird about LR. Most charging systems charge the battery then the battery will run the rest of the electrical system.. If you run the Land Rover at 60% you are going to have a problem with your alternator...

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In the past at least, what is normally called the regulator looked at the battery voltage and if lower than some predetermined "set point", would tell the generator/alternator to start making amps with the goal being to raise the battery voltage to the set point.

When that was achieved, then the regulator would tell the generator to back off to some lower "float" number and keep it there.

Land Rover and now others, in their quest to achieve emission numbers tries to load shed, (cycle the seat heaters / windscreen, radio amp etc), rather than increase charging amps and hence load on the engine, particularly at idle or low rpm.

Yes, that probably contributes to why our alternators do not last all that long as well. I am on my third in about fifteen years, (as with the battery), so it looks like if one really wants to change something out, the alternator is the to do item as it is no fun to get at relative to the battery.

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The engine computer software designers know that the engine will start most often with a state of charge of perhaps 60% so for whatever reason and anything above that is a luxury. Well that is what it seems like anyway so if the question is how to extend your battery life, then put it on a maintainer every few months. Quote

There is an easy way to fix this and ensure the battery gets fully charged by the alternator and lasts far longer than the manufactures intended.

The charging system is as already said smart, it`s intent is that when the vehicle is under ICE power it should charge said vehicle as little as possible, this is to leave room in the battery for maximum regeneration, to enable this to happen the computer needs to know the SOC of the battery. Disconnecting the sensor on the negative black lead of the starter battery disables this smart system, the computer then instructs the alternator to charge in standard default mode (continuous charging at between 13.8 and 14 3 volts), same as the old days, the benefit is, battery lasts longer, No stop/start, a near to fully charged battery at all times, no need to register new battery and the car will now accept any lead acid battery as long as the sensor is not reconnected, if that occurs another AGM must be used. There are no down sides to this other than a very slight increase in fuel consumption. My cars have just passed their UK MOT`s with the sensor disconnected, there are NO EML`s and the stop/start light stays yellow (off) on my C-Class coupe and goes out(off) on my SLK.

I have been running my 2 Mercs with the sensor disconnected for the last 8 months, try it, if not happy reconnect, it`s only like a failed sensor.

PS, If the battery is mounted inside the vehicle an AGM or similar spill proof battery must be used.

Pic (1) checks battery charge rate, Ebay about £4, Pic (2) shows 2 pin sensor connection attached to battery clamp, yours should be similar.

Rob.

Robuk said:

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The engine computer software designers know that the engine will start most often with a state of charge of perhaps 60% so for whatever reason and anything above that is a luxury. Well that is what it seems like anyway so if the question is how to extend your battery life, then put it on a maintainer every few months. Quote

There is an easy way to fix this and ensure the battery gets fully charged by the alternator and lasts far longer than the manufactures intended.

The charging system is as already said smart, it`s intent is that when the vehicle is under ICE power it should charge said vehicle as little as possible, this is to leave room in the battery for maximum regeneration, to enable this to happen the computer needs to know the SOC of the battery. Disconnecting the sensor on the negative black lead of the starter battery disables this smart system, the computer then instructs the alternator to charge in standard default mode (continuous charging at between 13.8 and 14 3 volts), same as the old days, the benefit is, battery lasts longer, No stop/start, a fully charged battery at all times, no need to register new battery and the car will now accept any lead acid battery as long as the sensor is not reconnected, if that occurs another AGM must be used. There are no down sides to this other than a very slight increase in fuel consumption. My cars have just passed their UK MOT`s with the sensor disconnected, there are NO EML`s and the stop/start light stays yellow (off) on my C-Class coupe and goes out(off) on my SLK.

I have been running my 2 Mercs with the sensor disconnected for the last 8 months, try it, if not happy reconnect, it`s only like a failed sensor.

PS, If the battery is mounted inside the vehicle an AGM or similar spill proof battery must be used.

Rob.

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I failed to update my other thread, but I will comment on my experience trying the procedure you mention.

My truck is a North America spec 2012 LR4 5.0 V8.


Experiment 1. Disconnected BMS sensor and replaced with straight ground cable. Result was a charging system fault on dash.

Experiment 2. Cleared fault and replaced BMS sensor ground strap but disconnected wiring harness connector to BMS sensor. Result was a charging system fault.

Experiment 3. Disabled BMS sensor via IIDTool. No fault, but over time charging voltage migrated back to the 13.2-13.5 volt realm regardless of engine RPM, which makes me think the "smart" strategy is still in play somehow.

My conclusions so far are that:
1. It is not possible to run the truck in factory configuration but BMS sensor removed without triggering a charging system fault.

2. Disabling the BMS via the IIDTool provides some short term benefit in charging voltage, but the system seems to migrate back toward crappy performance.

3. Resetting the vehicle/disabling the BMS sensor provides some short term improvement (charging voltage tracks at 14.2-14.5V) for a while after either of the aforementioned operations, but migrates back toward crappy performance.

Maybe the control logic is different in the Euro spec version and it works for you guys. Or, if you see a problem with my methodology to run the truck without the bms sensor, by all means, please let me know.

For the time being I think us North Americans are stuck with the crappy charging algorithm.

Thanks for doing that research and trial and error for us. Another possible path here could be to fake a PWM signal to the alternator or even put a simple controller on it so you could manage it yourself. I am not sure that the BMS wouldn't throw a code though if the output of the alternator doesn't match what it requests.

I would love to solve this though. I just use my 7002 CTEK all the time when its parked in the garage. I still am about the replace both my batteries with fresh ones after 3 years though. Pretty rough on them when on trips anyway... fridge, lights, shower, charging stuff. Even with 100w solar, it ends up cycling them quite a bit over a few years.

mbw said:

Thanks for doing that research and trial and error for us. Another possible path here could be to fake a PWM signal to the alternator or even put a simple controller on it so you could manage it yourself. I am not sure that the BMS wouldn't throw a code though if the output of the alternator doesn't match what it requests.

I would love to solve this though. I just use my 7002 CTEK all the time when its parked in the garage. I still am about the replace both my batteries with fresh ones after 3 years though. Pretty rough on them when on trips anyway... fridge, lights, shower, charging stuff. Even with 100w solar, it ends up cycling them quite a bit over a few years.

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I don't have that level expertise to fab up a PWM replicator, but if someone does, I will experiment with it.

It is near to impossible to get the batteries above 75%-80% estimated charge as read by the IIDTool.

I do the same as you. I have a Noco 8 amp charger mounted under the hood and a male receptacle mounted in the front bumper. Standard procedure is to plug the truck into the wall at home.

i also run a 120W panel when parked to camp.

The light does not matter, of course it`s going to show a charging system fault because the EMU can`t read the sensor, did you take the charge rate from source, ie a direct link to the battery via cig lighter socket, did you allow the car to rest overnight then check the battery voltage with a multimeter to see if battery was being fully charged.

What you are suggesting is that if this sensor fails on a long journey your battery will go flat, I don`t consider the manufactures would allow this to happen certainly in the US where long journeys are often the norm. If that sensor fails it is a minor problem and does not effect anything as was shown by my cars passing the MOT and the emissions test. It does not show an EML on the Merc`s therefor that manufacturer must consider a failed battery sensor is a minor issue.

Just disconnect the sensor at the battery clamp, forget about the warning light, drive the car and test the battery each morning, don`t do anything else. This is going backwards, why should you have to plug a charger in every night, this was not needed before stop/start and regeneration arrived.

Rob,

Rob, have you tried this on your LR4, or only on your Mercs?

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3. Resetting the vehicle/disabling the BMS sensor provides some short term improvement (charging voltage tracks at 14.2-14.5V) for a while after either of the aforementioned operations, but migrates back toward crappy performance. Quote.

13.5 volts is probably OK, Have you considered that voltage might suggest that your battery is fully charged, you can`t keep banging in 14.5 volts, on a long journey that voltage will probably destroy your battery. My MK1 TT 2005 has old school continuous charging but not continuously at 14.5 volts.

gsxr said:

Rob, have you tried this on your LR4, or only on your Mercs?

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No don`t own one, but this works on Fords, Jag`s, BMW`s etc. Have a look round. I came across this when seeking a way to disable Stop/start, this then led to drivers complaining of short lived batteries, I thought stop/start was the cause of this but finally realised that was only part of the issue, to get any value from regeneration space is needed in the battery, this means the battery can often remain partially charged for long periods which shortens it`s life. If you get rid of stop/start and regeneration your battery will last much longer.

http://www.batteriesinternational.c...lters-as-drivers-disable-start-stop-function/

Robuk said:

No don`t own one, but this works on Fords, Jag`s, BMW`s etc. Have a look round. I came across this when seeking a way to disable Stop/start, this then led to drivers complaining of short lived batteries, I thought stop/start was the cause of this but finally realised that was only part of the issue, to get any value from regeneration space is needed in the battery, this means the battery can often remain partially charged for long periods which shortens it`s life. If you get rid of stop/start and regeneration your battery will last much longer.

http://www.batteriesinternational.c...lters-as-drivers-disable-start-stop-function/

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I really enjoyed reading that link. Gee guys, we have a problem - there otta be a law! The article would be funny if it were not true.

I am led also to believe it will be so good when vehicles drive themselves and I guess go where others decide - that would I presume be what happens when one yields the driving to others.

In the meantime, I will weep for the battery manufacturers.