Bosh engine Q

Discussion in 'Discovery' started by superrocco16v, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. superrocco16v

    superrocco16v New Member

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    How can know if engine is 4.0 or 4.6 on the bosh models if is out of car already trying to buy block for my 2003 4.6 disco due to plroblem with sleeves ,thanks


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  2. BeemerNut

    BeemerNut Full Access Member

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    Sorry late to the party but have LR engine code numbers to identify 4.0 to 4.6 engines. Give this a go old chap. 95 D1 5 spd repowered with a 4.6 w/chip and cam upgrade. Well worth the added torque swap vs the sad LR bored out 3.5 to 3.9 turd. I hope you got that 4.6. PS, do yourself or engine a favor and change out the cam and lifters as OEM is crap they are both shot by 60K miles including the timing chain and sprockets. Go with a true roller chain system vs "el cheapo link type of chain and sprockets. Piper cams comes to mind as the best cam. Summit or others for the Edelbrock true roller timing chain and sprocket set, I recall it also fits a GM V6 engine. I would clean the engine externally the flip upside down then pull rods caps as well mains then inspect (mike journals) with intentions of rolling a new set of mains and rod bearings. Also check the oil pump and rockers including the shafts for wear. A tight engine will be better lubricated with a higher oil pressure and a longer life. ......~~=o&o>......
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  3. Mrdadaxt

    Mrdadaxt Member

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    I humbly reply with the following info for anyone getting started with this type of project. First, since the asking price of the used 4.6 Bosch Engines (no cast mark of 4.0 or 4.6 on the plenum housing since there isn't one - but, the modern looking intake made up of long tube runners like a GM tuned port engine) is a freakin' joke.... 135K unknown miles & demanding $2500 , 47k and demanding $5k+ .... don't buy an engine unseen w/o the CarFax report documenting the donor vehicle. This will guarantee the '03 or '04 Disco II is optioned w/ the 4.6 or the '00 - '02 Range Rover is likewise equipped.
    This type of history is only going to be available from the most reputable Land Rover dismantlers such as motorcarsltd.com , coventrywest.com and their like - only. Or, buying the engine directly from the owner of the donor salvage Disco, R.R. - site seen, Not unseen - with the identifying paper work. The VIN on the block will match the VIN of the donor vehicle.
    Simply put, if you don't have exact history on the engine do Not buy it.
    Without buying a known donor engine you're not going to be able to pull the heads and observe that the 4.0 has a more shallow dish in the piston top, the rod is longer on the 4.6, or the stamping cast into the piston top identifies the 4.6 from a Range Rover vs. the 4.6 in the late Disco II.
    Take your time in planning your engine upgrade and don't get desperate, and commit to the fact that it'll take some money to do right. Minimally, the machining of the block for the replacement Top-Hat cylinder liners.
    This is now the step to reach out to Mark Lagrou, D&D Fabrication, aluminumv8.com, one of the finest automotive enthusiast I ever had the pleasure of doing business with. There's going to be a few folks who are going to disagree but, his family is the most knowledgeable Buick/Olds/Rover aluminum V8 expert in North America.
    A very expensive 47k mile engine is no guarantee of longevity (ouch! yea, from experience) and has every single engineering flaw of a brand new off the shelf engine that has NOT been re-engineered with modern top-hat cylinder liners, after having the block's integrity verified, squared via resurfacing, cam bore examined prior to the machinist at D&D installing the cam bearings themselves. Fed-X can get your 4.6 block to and from MI (that's Michigan) safely once boxed securely (96 lbs.)
    MINIMALLY - rebuild the oil pump, better - replace the front cover with new (Lagrou won't commit to anything other than this option.) Don't even consider using old motor mounts. Buy, the studs & bolts manufactured by ARP for Mark Lagrou's engine specialist (from D&D Fab.)
    I am sure I have one of the finest running 4.6 Bosch engines in my '00 Disco II due to the tireless input and guidance from Mark at D&D Fab. He insisted on building a "hood slammer" stage II setup and he was exactly right.
    I'll not be posting anymore replies to this note based on my personal experience for the upgrade to the 4.6 Bosch in my '00 Disco II.
    The operators of D&D Fabrication (Mark Lagrou!) are the experts and love building the Rover/Buick aluminum V8.
    Mark Lagrou's team is the unsurpassed experts. Reach out to them if need be.
    Thanks for reading, Mike.
     
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  4. BeemerNut

    BeemerNut Full Access Member

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    Mike, what are your 4.6 "stage 2" Hp, Tq and cam specs?
    All 4.0 engines become 4.6 when sold used seems to be the norm.
    Block numbers I posted above are a sure way of identifying a 4.0 vs a 4.6 engine
    .....~~=o&o>......
     
  5. Mrdadaxt

    Mrdadaxt Member

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    hey Beemer, ok for sure- this is my last comment on this subject from real world, no online libraries, and other folks thoughts.

    I'll make additional notes for anyone wanting to build a really awesome D2. sure enough as you say, but, through experience and years of planning that started while driving my previous beauty manual trans Disco I - verify the VIN and donor vehicle are one and the same.
    here in the states it's just a matter of patience to settle for both (oh yea, and money.)
    The emissions regulations in Colorado's major cities are just too extremely stringent and the fuel/electrical/emissions controls for the D1 & D2 too proprietary and very restrictive to allow for a legal swap of a Bosch controlled 4.6 into a D1. Way past my half way decent capabilities (and pocket book.)
    with the precious horse power figures produced by the Bosch controlled 4.6 , it's giving up way too much power when the
    4.6 is controlled by the GEMS management. Not a problem for those with the time to maintain a 4.0 piston engine-d' 4.6 with GEMS management. The compression increase of the shallow dished 4.0 piston would surely compensate for the power produced by the Bosch managed engine but, a pretty great cost maintenance wise.

    The 4.0 D2 '00-'04 share the same Bosch fuel,emissions,electronics and is just simply the way to go legally.
    as far as the engine specs of the Bosch controlled 4.6 in my '00 Disco II - started with the 237 hp as spec by L.R. for the '04 D2 which is CarFax'd via VIN for my block.
    Mark Lagrou (D&D Fabrication/aluminumV8.com) specified Crower cam and valve drive train components. With the blue-printing of the top-hat cylinder liners to each specific cylinder's corresponding placement, the .003 off the deck, like wise .003 off when my awesome assembler had the heads rebuilt, it's reasonable to calculate .3 - .4 tenths additional compression.
    Lagrou of D&D Fabrication / aluminumV8.com's family has been racing the Buick aluminum V8 since the early 70's. Mark's dad was an engineer with GM for like three decades and is part of the racing team that built GM's salt flat record holding full bodied GMC full size pick 'em up truck that might still be holding the land speed record for this vehicle class.

    With the fore mentioned limitations of the then Bosch fuel/emissions/electrical Mark Lagrou insisted that I build a "hood slammer" - in other words a very solid and exceptional beauty 4.6 that someone's spouse will never have to complain about
    once the project is done & the hood is back on the truck. The proprietary head studs and bolts manufactured to D&D Fabrication's specifications by ARP are to be a big part of the longevity of this build. The block looks like it belongs in a big Kawasaki having been machined to perfection and gleaming like jewelry.

    Any need for additional information on engine specifications when building a 4.6 can be answered by the experts at
    aluminumV8.com
    I'm not kidding, this is my last post on this subject and with a parting comment to not even think about using any of the old engine ancillaries(pumps, all hoses, pulleys, idlers, mounts, plugs, 8mm wires, coil packs, reseal the intake cooler lines/gaskets, everything!) with a project of this scope. Build it to last 15 years.
     
  6. BeemerNut

    BeemerNut Full Access Member

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    Mike, your "stringent" Colorado smog regulations, I would bet we are tougher with our California smog tests especially living in the 9 bay area counties. Talking the San Francisco bay area.
    I must add the 4.6 ( your "legal swap" reply) from a 3.9 into my 95 D1 (5 speed) was an easy transplant while still maintaining the GEMs system with distributor ignition. I can dial in the advance (vacuum by running a vac unit from Oz vs reduced degrees for US & Calif. spec) plus recurving the mechanical advance to what my engine can handle vs factory set specs be it with a distributor. General computer controlled ignition timing, you must take what is programmed into it as they tone them down for all the different octanes and engine loads.
    While running a Piper cam with a Mark Adams "Tornado" chip I pass smog with ease with very low emissions gases at idle and at 2,500 rpm's way below the maximum allowed gases. Hell a bigger cam would still pass smog.
    Four hole Bosch injectors vs Lucas 80's design single hole dribble injectors where first to go.
    LR's 2.5 bar pressure regulator even brand new are on the ragged edge of LR's minimum fuel pressure specs. A 3.0 bar BMW regulator a perfect swap and install item you can see the difference in injector spray pattern. I built a injector cleaning and volume flow amount unit.
    Side by side acceleration plus a dead pull starting at 60 mph in 5th gear only to top end against a 96 D1 5 speed with a 4.6 and Bosch system swap vs my 95 D1 4.6 maintaining the GEM's system was a night and day fun event. I pulled away from that 4.6 Bosch controlled D1 with ease in every test including a higher top end speed. Still pass the visual without any problems including the high flow CATs I installed. Going on 17 years with the 4.6 powered fun to drive D1. Back in 1970 I installed a 215 into a 61 P1800 Volvo and have been working with the "aluminum wonder" since 1961.
    .....~~=o&o>.....
     
  7. Mrdadaxt

    Mrdadaxt Member

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    hey, hey Beemer.
    I really appreciate your sharing real life expertise on the 4.6 with everyone. I'm really keen on the upgrade to the modern ceramic fuel injectors with the 3.0 bar regulator. I'm under the impression that the 3.0 bar regulator is a direct bolt-in from your description. Safe to presume both are manufactured by Bosch.
    Do you have the emission testing done with the slightly larger injectors & 3.0 bar regulator?
    It's now been 2 years since my D2 was built. Back in the planning stages, I always wanted to upgrade to the modern ceramic injectors but have been unable to find any real advise until you just shared. The hold up had so far been the factory fuel regulation being able to meet the slightly higher manufacturer's specs of the ceramic Bosch injectors. My complements on your thorough development and testing of the ceramic injector(s) and research leading the 3.0 regulator.
    I see the advantage you are describing with your knowledge gained using the distributor/GEMS used in the D1 and like RRs
    to meet the the increased efficiency of the long tube induction, advanced spark control of the Bosch system. I honestly still miss my 95 D1 manual.
    You know something kinda funny - is that I keep wanting to advise superrocco16 & keep forgetting to do so - to keep his original 4.6 and start his project by having that original block inspected for integrity - and if the block is good (very most likely will be a good candidate) - to look no further. Pack the bare 90 lb. block up & ship it via Fed-X to aluminumV8.com
    Beemer, another thing I saw from your past post is regarding the spacer plate you milled with the Bosch intake. Is that still something from your experience you would share for folks having to meet the necessary emission regulations we face?
    On this project I also replaced the entire exhaust system with high-flow cat Y system and Magnaflow Cat back stainless system.
    The Crower stage II cam runs like a dream and will rev as far as you dare! lol ! That little gem of an engine has a ton of power for such a very heavy 4x4. Like yourself, I think most people would roll their eyes back in their head if we said a very well built 4.6 can push a D1/D2 to over 115 mph (probably at least 7-10 more mph to go) and backing off just because - well, what the heck would you say to a trooper? Knowing the top-end is way up there will have to do.
    Very, very interested in your response regarding the emission testing with the much improved injectors over the Lucas units for the D2.
    With all of the awesome choices available to 4x4 enthusiast from all of the amazing manufacturers, this isn't about buying the most expensive and newest 4x4. too easy. The Discovery D1 & D2 are simply my favorites.
    I can't encourage fans of the D1/D2 enough to upgrade the engine for longevity and keep their D1/D2s. It's way worth the effort.
    Thanks, Mike
     
  8. superrocco16v

    superrocco16v New Member

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    This is a lot of help I do have a d1 99 with the gems 4.0 and 03 d2 4.6 that I like the most and trying to rebuilt due to the sleeves knocking to much the engine still runs very strong is just the noise too much bare


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  9. Mrdadaxt

    Mrdadaxt Member

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    hey superocco16v. I've been driving Disco's since the mid '90s. and have been reading ridiculous nonsense on all kinds of Land Rover forums for the Disco's for a couple decades. Every now-and-then you'll come across a expert like beemer who's willing to take the time to share the best inside knowledge.
    here's some good advise. stop running the 4.6 immediately to improve the possibility of the original block to be re-sleeved using the top-hat cylinder technology.
     
  10. BeemerNut

    BeemerNut Full Access Member

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    Mike, the 3.0 bar BMW regulators are mounted the identical way as LR having a rubber hose inlet from the fuel pump with an "O" ringed outlet mounted to the fuel rail.
    With a pressure vessel filled with fluid pressurizing the regulator plus a variable vacuum source connected to the regulator I was able to test when the regulator will began its bypass plus a simulated idle and full throttle vacuum causing the elevated fuel rail pressure readings.
    About all the BMW's of the late 80's era have 3.0 bar regulators, Bosch 0 280 160 249 number as example. Bosch 4 hole injectors made for Ford have Ford on them with numbers having a 15* angled spray pattern, perfect fan aiming directly at the back of the valve vs many other other injectors spraying too wide of pattern onto the port walls.
    I built a timer with duty cycle plus variable frequency when flushing and checking injectors.
    Low frequency app 350 simulated rpm's up to 9,500 rpm's, from 3% to 90% duty cycle. At the 90% duty cycle with electronic timer set to 5 minutes and again at low idle conditions ending up with a matched set of 8 flowing within 3/4%, 0.75% of each other.
    Drag the clutch in 4th without throttle pulling the engine down below 350 rpm's until compression stalls the engine never missing a beat. Rock or shove the LR in 3rd gear enough to jar or rotate the crank a 1/4 turn it will fire up shuttering then chugging away. I swap between the 3.9 air mass meter with a 4.6 mass meter depending if I need to have a smog check. Reset TPS to stock position, remove the hot water to throttle valve restriction.
    Stuffed an adjustable restriction into the idle bypass hose hence cold start idle of 800 rpm's not the high revving cold engine running startup.
    Installed a MasterLube.org 3 quart pre-oiler controlled by relays and timer, never a dry start without oil pressure. Pressurized engine after an overnight oil drain after installing a dry 7" long Hastings LF426 oil filter for a 28-32 psi reading before starting. Gauge reading accumulator or engine pressure.
    On the intake took 1 1/2" thick aluminum stock and milled out an intake extension lowering the 3,100 max tq specs to 2,715 rpm's. You bet you can feel the pulling power increase at lower rpm's. Even a 2-3 mph rolling stop sign, put in 2nd, let out clutch fully then apply throttle. No problem a 1st to 3rd then 5th up shifts as example and still keeps pulling up to the 5,900 rpm's the rev limiter setting. Actually no need to beat it past 4,600.
    Between the trumpet base and plenum cover added a 1/4" spacer plate allowing more clearance above the end trumpet bells for a smoother airflow to those end ram tubes. The factory clearance had only 0.470" from bell to inside the plenum cover.
    BTW these flat tappet engines the cam and lifters will live a long happy life if running engine break in additive replacing the zinc and phosphorus protection flat tappet cams require. Ok I shot my mouth off again on this forum, a sure bet i'll be again called a "PLAGIARIST". Years ago I posted the milled out parts ( I own a Bridgeport mill) plus the injector cleaning and testing project.
    Bottom line I wish I had a Top Hat block, so far so good with this stock block which is kept cool with a larger custom radiator.
    Tag your it.....~~=o&o>......
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018

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