LR4 5.0 Chain Guides actual problem?

Discussion in 'LR4' started by Tubthumper, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. Tubthumper

    Tubthumper New Member

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    Wife and I did the Land Rover experience not once but twice in 2 months at the Biltmore and fell in love with the LR4 (RRS was pretty cool too...)

    I am currently on the hunt for a LR4 and located a 2010 with 63K miles on it with the color and options we want.

    While doing research on reliability of the LR4 I feel like I am noticing the 5.0 plastic timing chain guides/tensioners mentioned more often in the last 6 months.

    Is this a problem that all LR4's (pre 2013) will eventually face or is it fairly rare?

    Anyone know the cost for the fix?
     
  2. mbw

    mbw Full Access Member

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    I have seen it discussed with more frequency also, but have yet to really read any detailed information on a failure or symptoms on an LR4. Sounds like it is more known on some of the other Jags. (Both use AJ133 motors).

    As always, we (as a community) will gather more info and before you know it will have tutorials or at least plenty of information on solutions.

    I personally wouldn't worry about it enough to dissuade me from buying a 2010. It isn't that common it seems.. it's been ~7 years since the 2010's came out...
     
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  3. mpinco

    mpinco Full Access Member

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    A little research found some interesting data points. Keep in mind that those with issues will dominate discussions while those with no issues will not show up in the discussions. Hence the frequency of an issue appears to be higher than it really is. True of all forums and questions.

    Some history:

    Great overview of the tensioner problem

    ".....Jaguar’s 4.0-liter V8, known as the AJ-V8, was the first-ever eight-cylinder engine from that manufacturer. Designed in the mid-1990s by an all-Jaguar engineering team (including employees who worked on the previous twin-cam six), it proved to be a superb combination of lightness, torque, power, and fuel efficiency, the equal of anything from BMW or Mercedes.

    In their zeal to reduce the weight of the valve train and related components as a way of improving fuel efficiency, the engineers underdesigned the AJ-V8's timing gear: in particular, the cam chain tensioners. These plastic components are part of the AJ-V8's single-chain design, a weight-saving alternative to the more robust double-chain approach Jaguar has used on most of its six-cylinder engines. (The new 4.2L version of the Jaguar AJ-V8 engine has double timing chains.)

    As a result of their weak design and other factors like engine overheating or poor maintenance, the plastic cam chain tensioners on 1997 to 2000 V8 Jaguars began to experience stress fractures, and so did some of the plastic guides. While the cars were under warranty, many tensioners were replaced by Jaguar service departments with improved components.

    In their Technical Service Bulletin No. X303-68 of February 2005, titled “Rattle From Engine on Start-up and Idle,” Jaguar states:.....

    .....Note that late in the 1999 model year the factory began installing upgraded plastic tensioners. These second-generation units are, to the best of our knowledge, more reliable than the originals......"


    While JLR has had a history of timing chain issues, interesting that there are multiple generations and that plastic tensioners where installed as an 'upgrade' at one time.

    But not just JLR?

    2011 Timing chain shot at 44k miles?

    "Hi i am seeing a lot of problem with timing chains , on newer 2010 and newer, plus we are seeing them on Mercedes Benz,BMW,Ford , and we are suspecting that with extended oil changes it is contributing to early failure of timing chains, another taught is that the oil do not have the proper additives to protect the timing chain and guides from wearing out, i have sent a couple of oil samples to get tested , so hopefully we will have some answers"

    Beginning to get the feeling that this is not a tensioner issue itself. Could it be related to the move to high fuel mileage lubrication or extended intervals? Tensioner issues are a symptom, not a root cause. If so that opens the door to all current generation engines, not just prior to 2013.

    And .....

    Jaguar V8 engine questions/concerns

    ".....Every single picture I've seen of an engine undergoing a full timing chain change has had one thing in common - all the internal components are caked in brown deposits from heavily contaminated oil. It's no surprise under those circumstances that chains wear and PTFE components become brittle and fail......"

    Prevention - Reduced oil change intervals and SeaFoam for all?
     
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  4. mpinco

    mpinco Full Access Member

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    Oh, and if root cause is oil formulations and extended intervals, those who use profile is urban driving and few miles likely increase the frequency of the issue as the engine never gets hot and cleaned out with extended runs.
     
  5. mbw

    mbw Full Access Member

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    Sorry to bump this, but I recently got my own copy of microcat land rover parts program (running in vmware fusion on my mac). I did some digging on the parts just to see what exact parts my vin has in it (the * next to the part is where my vin falls on my mid year 2013)

    I don't know for sure that I have "the update" because they show I have the same parts as some of the impacted vin range, but yet my vin is after the vin range mentioned in the TSB... and the FIX parts are outside the range of my vin.

    So either I have an outdated TSB, or they never had a 2013 tsb, (this was announced in 2015, so you would hope they knew about 2013 impact). I'm so confused.

    The parts catalog only says the vin ranges and that a part is superseded, but not why or how the part changed. (which sucks, that would make the parts guys job easier) Hopefully this clears up part number questions as people dig into this project if they DIY or anything.

    --
    Notes from TSB...
    TSB LTB00474NAS3 19 MAY 2015 (section 303-01) Rattle/Click noise from front of engine
    LR4 2010-2012 IMPACTED VIN AA513326 to CA652214
    --


    LR011900 Timing Chain lubricating jet, lower AA00001 to CA615288
    LR034466 Timing Chain lubricating jet, lower CA615289 to CA632917
    LR042667 Timing Chain lubricating jet, lower CA632918 to EA720633 *
    LR059161 Timing Chain lubricating jet, lower EA720634

    LR032714 Timing Chain lubricating jet, upper (all vins) *

    LR012004 Timing Chain AA000001 to CA615288
    LR032048 Timing Chain CA615289 and on *

    LR010883 Timing Chain Tensioner AA000001 to CA615288
    LR032088 Timing Chain Tensioner CA615289 to DA696317 * (tsb ends with CA652214 in this range).
    LR051008 Timing Chain Tensioner DA696315 and on (mentioned as fix part in TSB)

    LR010769 Timing chain tensioner blade AA000001 to AA999999
    LR024839 Timing chain tensioner blade BA000001 to CA615288
    LR032090 Timing chain tensioner blade CA615289 to CA628207
    LR040977 Timing chain tensioner blade CA628208 to DA696314 * (tsb ends with CA652214 in this range).
    LR051013 Timing chain tensioner blade DA696315 (mentioned as fix part in tsb, called 'lever')

    LR012642 LH Timing Chain Guide AA000001 to DA696314 *
    LR051012 LH Timing Chain Guide DA696315 and on

    LR010765 RH Timing Chain Guide AA000001 to DA696314 *
    LR051011 RH Timing Chain Guide DA696315 and on
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  6. jwise87

    jwise87 Member

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    While working on mine I was reading the workshop manual from topix and it actually shows a picture of the tensioner and the tensioner blade and says "if they look like this replace with these" but it doesn't give a date range and has running change type of feel to it.
     
  7. ryanjl

    ryanjl Full Access Member

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    I have found that there's an inverse relationship between my anxiety level with regard to timing chain issues and the length of time remaining on my CPO warranty.

    The other day I had the hood open on my LR4 when I cold started it, and heard what I was certain was chattering in the front of the engine. Everything I have read about Rovers in need of the repair state that they sound more and more like a diesel, which I believe mine has done over time. That, combined with the "pinging" noise I discussed in the other thread motivated me to set up an appointment at my local dealer to get these things sorted.

    The service manager told me that they have seen a few 5.0's in for the timing chain guides. None have ever thrown codes; he said the only codes that would be thrown would be if the chain got bad enough for the timing to be off, by which time the vehicle would be exhibiting a lot of other symptoms.

    This video highlights the issue:



    After watching that, I'm unsure how it could ever not be an eventual problem on almost all 5.0 engines with the older design guides. The issue isn't wear due to friction so much as it is impact between the aluminum guides and the steel piston on the tensioners, so I'm unsure how much lubrication really has to do with it.
     
  8. mpinco

    mpinco Full Access Member

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    Couple of thoughts

    - The video says that the JLR engine is a Ford engine.

    - From several articles the JLR 5.0 AJ-V8 Gen III engine is not a Ford 5.0 Coyote

    - IF the engines are the same we should be hearing of the same problem with Ford vehicles. I have not.
     
  9. cperez

    cperez Full Access Member

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    Soon, "timing chain guide anxiety" will be a DSM-IV diagnosis. I had it bad in my 2011 LR4 and it wasn't throwing any codes, but was loud enough that it drew a comment from a friend of mine who knows nothing at all about cars. She was standing at my window talking to me as the motor idled and she said "is that NORMAL??" Ouch.

    Reportedly the issue was addressed in 2013 and later model years, but now I'm always listening for it in my MY13 with only 35K miles.

    This is Land Rover ownership.


    :eek::help:
     
  10. ryanjl

    ryanjl Full Access Member

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    It's not really a "Ford" engine, although it shares some provenance and is built at a Ford plant in the UK. I've seen various parts in my engine bay stamped 'FoMoCo," for example.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_AJ-V8_engine

    Regardless, the interface between the guides and the tensioners seems like a subpar design. Maybe I don't know enough about oils and lubricants, but it just seems inevitable that wear will happen eventually as depicted in the video.
     

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