LR4 vs LC - After 18 Months w/ The LC

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danrhiggins

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Hey, Folks, it has been 18 months since I made the switch from the LR4 to the Land Cruiser. From time to time I am asked how I would compare the two. This most recently happened in a thread on the excellent IH8MUD forum for 200 series Land Cruiser owners which reminds me a LOT of this awesome forum. So I thought I would share here what I did there with maybe a bit more elaboration. Then wrap up with some comments on the Discovery 5 - which, BTW, I am starting to see them (OK, maybe 1 or 2) out and about here in the south Denver area.

(Also, I still have two of the OEM Land Rover trailer hitch receivers and also a full set of unused, tan floor mats. I would love to sell these for cheap to anyone in the greater Denver area.)

LC vs LR4. Hmmm. The LR4 was my first venture into exploring off road and where I learned to drive off-road. Having the LR4 opened up a whole new world for me. (It helped that we live in Colorado!). I owned it for just over two years and put 55K miles on it. Much of that was off-pavement and most of the rest was on road trips throughout the West. (I don’t commute.). I loved the body style. I loved the cargo area with the fold flat 2nd and 3rd row. So incredibly versatile. I liked the functionality of the Nav system better than the LC. (The LR4 allowed you to upload gpx files and had a great off-road mode though the screen was smaller.). The adjustable height suspension really was useful both for access/loading and for going off road. Also a nicer ride. Somewhat better approach and departure angles and a tighter turning radius. I took off-road driving training from one of the best (Bill Burke out of Grand Junction, CO) and from one of Land Rover’s professional trainers at Overland Expo. All in the LR4. Learning to use low range, off road modes, etc. I drove numerous off-road trails in CO, UT and AZ and the LR4 just felt better than when I try to do this with the LC. Wonderful memories. The LR4 was definitely my first love.

(Before I discuss what wasn’t as awesome about the LR4 and what I like about the LC, it is useful to understand that I had the 2014 model LR4. Those of you with earlier models had that great V8 with over 400 ft lbs of torque and more horsepower and an old fashion shifter rather than the frustrating paddle shifters which are awkward when you are off-road and making a lot of full turns of the wheel.)

As much as I loved the LR4 had a significant issue when it came to towing a larger trailer. And my wife and I wanted a larger trailer. It wasn’t so much the 6,000 lbs GVWR but the 800+ lbs of hitch weight that was the question. As some of you know I tried a number of alternatives including after market, bolt on hitch receivers. But that led to the need to put the spare on the roof or in the cargo area or get a rear bumper. All more than I really wanted to do just to make the trailer hitch work.

Then came the concerns about long term reliability. Having to replace the battery that powered the (annoying) start/stop eco “feature” for $600 after two years. Knowing I would need to replace the compressor at about 65K given how much off-roading we did. And beginning to hear some squeaks and rattles that were likely due to going off road made me wonder how many miles I would be able to go with that vehicle and still get decent trade in value. Soooo... I began looking around.

So why the Land Cruiser. First, it is the closest thing I could find to the type of vehicle the LR4 is. Split tailgate. Very off-road capable. And, to be honest, when compared to the LR4 it seems to be simply a stronger, tougher tool for getting the job done. Where I loved the LR4, I respect the LC. I enjoyed the LR4 and was far more likely to take it out for a drive in the mountains - just because. But I trust the LC more. I fully expect to get 250K miles on the LC and that includes the off road driving (though that has moderated somewhat) and the towing. It was more expensive (nearly 80K) but it will last twice as long as any other vehicles in this class.

What do I like about this specific Land Cruiser? The 5.7L V8. Almost identical specs to the LR4 V8 in the 2013 and earlier models. But in the 2016 they also have the 8-speed transmission. And in Toyota’s case, they used the 8 speeds to extend the range downward. So first gear is significantly lower than on the 6-speed. As you move up the range the difference becomes less where 6th gear on the 8-speed essentially matches 4th gear on the 6-speed. And of course all LCs come with low range - which I use any time I’m on a road that isn’t “flat”. Moving to 4L on the LC enables the multi-terrain traction modes, CRAWL, Hill Descent, turn assist (would still prefer to have a tighter turning radius) and various off-road camera modes. But since I learned from various Land Rover training videos and sessions that there is nothing bad about driving in 4L if you aren’t going that fast and not overly concerned about optimizing MPG I might as well use it most the time I am off road. And it works great. Also, BTW, the LC transmission works much like the LR4 including that in manual mode you aren’t really forcing a specific gear but rather limiting how high the automatic transmission is allowed to shift. Very useful on the LR4 and the LC. So all of the transmission-related driving techniques (4L/S1 for steep descents, 4L and S3 for climbs, etc.) transfer over easily. But at least I don’t need to search for the paddle shifters on a windy trail! BTW, as you can imagine with the engine and transmission and the fact that the LC is even a bit heavier than the LR4, MPG sucks. It’s about the same as the 2013 and earlier LR4 models. If that matters. It doesn’t for me.

What about the suspension. Good and bad here. The adjustable height of the LR4 air suspension was very handy. Especially when my mother in law needed to get in and out of the LR4. (We don’t even attempt this with the LC.). And when camping out of the back of the LR4, it was great that it would auto-level. Same when towing (if they had just addressed the hitch weight issue.). But when it comes to modifications, it is much easier to do with the LC. It is common in Australia (where LCs are also very common in the outback) to upgrade the LC suspension to support expedition gear. In the Mideast the same is done to add armor to LCs. I did a 2” lift using stronger springs, better shocks and a matching UCA. The moved the standard 8.7” or so ground clearance of the stock LC to 10.7”. Coupled with the 285/65R18 E-rated KO2 (nearly 33”, some people have put 34” and larger) tires I was able to put on my ground clearance is at 11”. All the time. So if I’m driving a rutted road that is essentially flat but has a ridge down the middle, I can drive at 35MPH without it squawking at me or automatically lowering unless I slow down. The KDSS suspension system works well for what is intended. Articulation is very good. Also, because you can upgrade the suspension to stronger springs/coils, you can accommodate more weight. It may not be armor but a lot of folks put heavy bumpers and other off road or expedition gear on them. The Lexus model of the LC has adjustable height suspension (hydraulic-ish rather than air) but, again, it would be difficult to modify.

Interior? I really miss the cargo area of the LR4. Though I have put drawers in the LC, part of that was to create a sleeping platform that would work with the goofy fold and roll 2nd row seats. I removed the third row a week after I bought it as it just got in the way and doesn’t fold flat like the LR4. Neither does the 2nd row. Fortunately, the drawer system I had installed is at the same height as the 2nd row when the back is folded down and with a little work that has become the “sleeping platform”. Definitely not the versatility of the LR4 cargo area (everything behind the first row). But the LC has a wider interior so that helps. In fact, the LC is somewhat wider in girth but its external measurements are not really wider. That is because the LR4 has fenders, the LC does not. The LC has some nice comfort features in the interior. At least the 2nd row where the seats can move forward and back and tilt back. But I found the front seat of the LR4, especially ours which had the lumbar support, to be more comfortable than the LC.

Infotainment/Nav? I do miss the off-road mode of the LR4. Especially the ability to upload gpx files for trails. The LC is not better for highway stuff and has no off road mode. So I installed an iPad holder and use iPad based Navigation tools. Much better. When not supporting my iPad I use the floor-mounted support to hold a table I made. It serves as a platform for lunch, camera gear, etc. The one thing I do like about the LC is that it has Siri Hands Free. So I can control my iPhone even when it is stored away. And the LC has wireless charging which will be great when I get my next iPhone.

Other notable differences? My LR4 did not have adaptive cruise control (though later LR4 models had that option.). Actually very nice on road trips. The LC has auto High Beams like the LR4 but the headlights do not adjust left and right around curves. That would be nice on dark mountain roads.

If Land Rover had come out with an improved LR4 that addressed the tongue weight issue I probably would have remained with Land Rover. But they didn’t. The new “Discovery” is a travesty. And in the context of this thread, I hope Toyota doesn’t do to the LC what Land Rover did to the LR4/Discovery! People are not beginning to talk and speculate about the next generation Land Cruiser as the current one is rather long in tooth. The fear is that they will cave to the pressure to make something more “relevant” to people who never use it for adventure and the closest they come to rock crawling is accidentally driving over the curb. We’ll see. But in a few years, as the LR4s begin to die out and unless the Defender is what we hope it will be, the Land Cruiser may become the next best option - even if you have to buy a used one.

Wishing you all well. Again, some very fond memories from the experiences we had with the LR4 and many thanks to many of you on this forum who were so helpful during that time. Maybe we’ll cross paths on a trail some time! I would never hesitate to partner up with someone in an LR4! If you see a white LC on the trail (I have named it “The Yeti”) with orange Maxtrax and a shovel on the permanent roof rack, it is likely to be me. Say hello!

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ryanjl

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I have owned a modified '83 FJ60, two FJ40s (a '78 and '76), and a modified '95 FZJ80, the latter of which I had for about 9 years before I sold it in early '08. My dad also had a '99 Lexus LX470 for about 5 years. After owning a sedan for a while, I wanted to get back into venturing off road and bought a '13 Wrangler Unlimited in late '12. The Wrangler was okay, but it had some shortcomings that grew on me and I was ready for something different after 3 years.

For something new, I was looking at a 200-series Land Cruiser, an LR4, or a Benz G500. The G500's in my price range were about 10 years old and had an extremely dated interior. Still, they still were first choice in my heart but for two factors: one, they were harder than hell to find in my area (in my 4 months or so of searching, only one ever came up for sale locally, and it had some problems); and two, we live in a 100-year old house that doesn't have much of a garage to work on cars when one of the surefire problems in the G500 comes up (window regulators, idler pulley, or a few engine sensors.)

For the Land Cruiser, I looked at a few in person but could just never get used to the appearance of the '08 to '15 model, which, to me, even looked goofier when modified with bullbars or tire carriers. The '16 facelift improved their look a ton, in my opinion, but those were out of my pricerange. The '08 to '15 models all drove fine, but they just seemed like they would be a boat offroad and would certainly require a lift, which has always compromised on-road driving in all my previous vehicles that have had one.

The LR4's in my price range came certified pre-owned, and (in my opinion) looked a ton better than the first design 200-series Land Cruisers. Their interiors were great and had a ton of rear cargo room. Best yet, the air suspension allowed it to drive excellent on-road and have ability off road. Yeah, the LR4's have some durability things, but getting a certified model gave me piece of mind, a car battery isn't a big deal, and the other things, like the control arm bushings, can be predicted. I have never heard of the AMK compressor needing replacement, though.

To me, the major service items in the LR4 aren't a whole lot different than similar items in other vehicle models, though. For the Land Cruisers, head gaskets in the FZJ80, timing chains at around 90k miles in the 100-series, or water pumps in the 200-series after around 70k miles are known quantities. Yeah, the air suspension adds complexity, the $1,500 or more you save in not having to install a lift can pay for a lot of maintenance.

That all said, not sure what I'll get when it's time to move on from the LR4. Do not like the new Discovery. We'll see what the Defender looks like. The new Wrangler looks intriguing, especially when it starts coming with the diesel. The '16 and newer Land Cruisers will be in my price range by then. And I still have dreams of a G500, only now I love the Europa imports and their pre-'02 interiors.

Glad to see you back, Dan, and thanks for the update.
 

danrhiggins

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I agree that the 2016 looks a bit better. Still, I prefer the look of the LRx and the earlier Discos to the more bulbous form of the Land Cruiser. (I originally named my what LC "Moby ****" as it was more of a big white whale. But that was a bit harsh so I've gone with Yeti - a white beast.) Looks, though, aren't really a consideration for me. Low on my list - but not so for most people. I've probably built up the LC as much as I want. Love the Gobi roof rack and ladder. Love the Slee sliders. I'm a fairly tame driver and with the E-rated tires I haven't noticed an on-road differences. The only other mods are on-board air for adjusting tires, a full on drawer system that I really like and a button that allows me to open the rear hatch from inside. I thought about adding driving lights but the LED lights are actually pretty darn good (except they cut off rather drastically.) I also like that the LC has the large windows like the LRx - something that is less the case with the new Discovery. Ultimately, I know I can drive the LC for 300K miles. That is 10 years. By then, I would expect the Defenders will be out as will the next gen LC. Maybe other options. Then again, I'll be 75 then so maybe I'll just get a Buick. ;-)
 

jwest

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And I still have dreams of a G500, only now I love the Europa imports and their pre-'02 interiors.

Glad to see you back, Dan, and thanks for the update.

yes, thanks Dan!!

Ryan...new G will have IFS !!!!! ...!!!! it's becoming an lc 200.... Someone on ih8mud I swear did the complex LX570 lift retaining full use of the hydraulic adjustable height range.

Obviously the LC cargo area, same with G, or any solid rear axle just can't have flush fold seats due to floor height above the frame and rear suspension. I consider the towing on the lr3/4 to be maybe conservative purely as a safety margin on the air compressor system, not even the springs, but the whole system. Otherwise the frame and body melding is just as strong as a boxed frame under body design like LC/G. G even has a lower tow rating for it's own reasons.

I towed a maxed out 7000 lb tandem 7x12 low rider across the USA and that's on top of the lr3 itself weighing much more than it should while also towing the full and slightly more 7700-8000+ lbs in a trailer with a brake controller. (My lr3 weighs roughly 7400-8200 depending on set-up for trips)

I was actually very impressed with the brakes on big hills as well as hard stops in traffic. Only trouble I had was in WV in summer on a very long interstate hill climb probably due to the heat, humidity and wanting to maintain 70 mph. The temp gauge went up some, but that was about it.

I have the notes somewhere from a CAT scales with all three axles and the math for trailer itself, % on tongue, etc. It was over the limits. I should mention the following summer I may have found myself getting a new rear diff...
 

mpinco

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Hello Dan, good your getting out and using your truck. I've never had a Toyota product and the minor interaction with the appliance dealers was not so good. British Car Club guy has relatively new Tundra that spent 3 to 4 months at the dealer for apparently a Toyota rear end recall, waiting for parts. He was a long time Toyota owner and was not too happy with the trajectory of factory support. They gave him a loaner but still. Doubt we ever consider a Toyota product. Bev thinks they are ugly and are styled with warts. Guess they needed a differentiator.

Still running my LR4 with Rhino hitch, LR air suspension and trailer stability control, load range E tires and a 19' trailer. Works for us. Discovery 5 no longer has the features we like to not sure where we would go but I'm thinking our LR4 is good for 500K+ miles with appropriate maintenance. I got 400K out of a Scout II so 500K should be easy on a LR4.

Interesting perspective on paddle shifters. A good example of technology being used for technology sake, style over substance. Much of today's technology is of minimal value, only added to pad profit margins. Info/nav systems are a good example. They are typically obsolete within 2 years. Reminds me of the console days of my parents and grandparents.

See you on a trail or campsite!
 

danrhiggins

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yes, thanks Dan!!

Ryan...new G will have IFS !!!!! ...!!!! it's becoming an lc 200.... Someone on ih8mud I swear did the complex LX570 lift retaining full use of the hydraulic adjustable height range.

Obviously the LC cargo area, same with G, or any solid rear axle just can't have flush fold seats due to floor height above the frame and rear suspension. I consider the towing on the lr3/4 to be maybe conservative purely as a safety margin on the air compressor system, not even the springs, but the whole system. Otherwise the frame and body melding is just as strong as a boxed frame under body design like LC/G. G even has a lower tow rating for it's own reasons.

I towed a maxed out 7000 lb tandem 7x12 low rider across the USA and that's on top of the lr3 itself weighing much more than it should while also towing the full and slightly more 7700-8000+ lbs in a trailer with a brake controller. (My lr3 weighs roughly 7400-8200 depending on set-up for trips)

I was actually very impressed with the brakes on big hills as well as hard stops in traffic. Only trouble I had was in WV in summer on a very long interstate hill climb probably due to the heat, humidity and wanting to maintain 70 mph. The temp gauge went up some, but that was about it.

I have the notes somewhere from a CAT scales with all three axles and the math for trailer itself, % on tongue, etc. It was over the limits. I should mention the following summer I may have found myself getting a new rear diff...

@jwest, are you jwestpro on IH8MUD?
 

Watermark

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Hey Dan.....we just picked up a 2014 LR4 with 68K. Have had it for over a month now, including a couple of road trips and have loaded it up with gear and people. Great vehicle.

Per your original post, you stated:
(Also, I still have two of the OEMLand Rovertrailerhitch receivers and also a full set of unused, tan floormats. I would love to sell these for cheap to anyone in the greater Denver area.)​

Do you have one of these OEM receivers left?
If so, I'd be interested in one.

Cheers,
Rob
847-420-1677 mobile

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jwest

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Hey Dan.....we just picked up a 2014 LR4 with 68K. Have had it for over a month now, including a couple of road trips and have loaded it up with gear and people. Great vehicle.

Per your original post, you stated:
(Also, I still have two of the OEMLand Rovertrailerhitch receivers and also a full set of unused, tan floormats. I would love to sell these for cheap to anyone in the greater Denver area.)​

Do you have one of these OEM receivers left?
If so, I'd be interested in one.

Cheers,
Rob
847-420-1677 mobile

View attachment 8397

You may have better luck finding him on ih8mud
 

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