5.0 Injector Lifespan? Worth replacing during Timing Chain job?

[ktm525]

It sounded worse on my phone last night. Listening to it on a proper multi speaker setup it actually doesn't sound all that bad. Yes a little metallic knocking but hard to discern over the noise of the injectors and fuel pump.

The after video will be the proof in the pudding I suppose. Please follow up with that.

 

[BeemerNut]

BeemerNut, you are referencing Bosch injectors and fpr's from conventional port injection engines. It is my understanding that the 5.0 is direct injected and therefore a completely different beast in terms of injectors. Is that not correct? Do you have actual experience maintaining direct injection engines?

Yes in the past i've worked on gas 2011 F150 Ecoboost direct injection systems. At 2,100 psi LR's 5.0 litre Rover direct injection I consider that not that high of a pressure system for a direct injection.
Cummins 5.9 diesel (Dodge 2500) working around app 6,000 psi idling with over 20,000 psi at full throttle demand.
Not much mentioned about direct injection having carbon buildup problems on the injectors but it's there.

 

[BeemerNut]

Judging by the posts here, a lot of people are having them done around 60k miles due to the noise. It's a $5k plus job at the dealership, so the loss in money is relative, especially if you don't plan on keeping the LR4 long-term anyway.

From what i've seen and been told the LR3's and 4's 5.0 FMoCo engine's injectors rarely cause much a problem with only a couple cases happening around the 150K mile mark with them lasting no problem up to and exceeding the 200K mile mark.
This injector information backing up my experiences with fuel injectors from a fuel injection cleaning services company:
http://cleaninginjector.com/california-fuel-injector-cleaning/san-francisco-fuel-injector-cleaning/ (419) 515-5400.
Had a conversation with one of above injector service employees, long pause first after his good laugh hearing about the "60k mile injector replacement times".
An honest company not taking your money with unnecessary early, low mileage injector replacement or cleaning services.

Maybe if driving in a foreign country off the beaten path like BF Mexico on gas containing water, dirt or old stale gasoline with your filtering system not fully protecting your injectors then you should have some problems.
Your injectors may not be happy and start leaking, plugged up discharge nozzles, odd spray patterns, lower gas mileage and performance plus rough running with not so quick starting issues.
Add nasty back of intake valves and stems carbon buildup a large lump that actually restricts air fuel flow past the intake valves. A common problem with 3.9 to 4.6 era LR engines.

......~~=o&o>......

 

[gsxr]

Yes in the past i've worked on gas 2011 F150 Ecoboost direct injection systems. At 2,100 psi LR's 5.0 litre Rover direct injection I consider that not that high of a pressure system for a direct injection. Cummins 5.9 diesel (Dodge 2500) working around app 6,000 psi idling with over 20,000 psi at full throttle demand.

2100psi is a high pressure system. Conventional port injection is typically around ±50psi. Diesel direct injection pressures are not even remotely relevant here. (Diesel indirect injection is typically 1600-2100psi, which is a "low pressure" diesel system, compared to ~20kpsi direct-injection "high pressure" diesels. Apples and oranges, you cannot compare the two.)

From what i've seen and been told the LR3's and 4's 5.0 FMoCo engine's injectors rarely cause much a problem with only a couple cases happening around the 150K mile mark with them lasting no problem up to and exceeding the 200K mile mark.

This post is in the LR4 subforum with a thread specifically about LR4 engines. Not LR3 or FoMoCo with low pressure port injection.

This injector information backing up my experiences with fuel injectors from a fuel injection cleaning services company:
http://cleaninginjector.com/california-fuel-injector-cleaning/san-francisco-fuel-injector-cleaning/ (419) 515-5400.
Had a conversation with one of above injector service employees, long pause first after his good laugh hearing about the "60k mile injector replacement times".
An honest company not taking your money with unnecessary early, low mileage injector replacement or cleaning services.

Everything on that website is discussing low pressure conventional port injection, every photo they show is a low-pressure injector, they say their default tests are a 43.5psi (3 bar) with leak tests at 10, 40 and 100 psi. It's not even clear if they service DI injectors. I agree with them btw, those type of injectors can last hundreds of thousands of miles without even needing the cleaning service they offer.

... A common problem with 3.9 to 4.6 era LR engines.

As dwizum mentioned earlier - can we please keep the discussion on topic, specifically for the 5.0L Jaguar AJ133 engine with direct injection?


Another data point: My 2010 LR4 has 115kmi, and although I'm not the first owner, I don't believe it's had the injectors or chain/tensioner replaced. No rattling yet.

 

[Saltyfly]

On to some actual LR4 & 5.0 discussion...

So after talking to my mechanic, and finding out how much he charges to to replace injectors as a stand alone job, it did not make sense to hold off on them when I can have them installed with zero labor costs as part of the timing chain job. I bit the bullet and ordered a set of the Bosch injectors from Atlantic British. Unfortunately, they won’t be here until Tuesday, so it’s going to delay the completion of the Timing Chain job a bit. I won’t have an “After” video until Wednesday or Thursday.

 

[ryanjl]

Land Rover actually recommends using BG 44K to clean out fuel injectors "twice between each 15k service."

Reference SSM46917
Models LR3, LR4, New Range Rover, Range Rover Sport
Title 4.2/4.4/5.0 Gasoline Fuel Additive For Clogged Fuel Injectors
Category Engine
Last modified 31-Jan-2011 00:00:00
Symptom 499000 Basic Engine

Content

Issue:
Fuel injectors clogged leading to potential problems such as poor running, poor fuel economy, excessive exhaust emissions, hard starting, rough idle, misfires and engine detonation.

Cause:
Poor fuel quality or fuel contaminants restricting the fuel injector flow rate.

Action:
Land Rover engineering now approve the use of BG 44K Power Enhancer Cleaner (which is sold in an 11oz/325ml can or bottle) on 4.2/4.4 AJV8 and 5.0 AJ133 Gasoline engine derivatives. The above mentioned additive should be used in the first instance in an attempt to cure a suspected ‘clogged’ injector (misfire DTC maybe stored) rather than unnecessary replacement.

NOTE: Land Rover recommend only using the above product a maximum of twice between each 15K service. Further information on the additive can be found on the BG Products website http://www.bgprod.com/products/fuelair.html

Whether that means every 5,000 miles or 7,500 miles, I'll let you interpret. I've been putting it in mine the last time I fill up before every oil change I've done.

Regardless, it signifies that Land Rover recognizes the potential for an issue. Or, it could just be a Land Rover "authorized" fuel injector cleaner if you find yourself in a position to maybe need one.

 

[gsxr]

Land Rover actually recommends using BG 44K to clean out fuel injectors "twice between each 15k service."

Whether that means every 5,000 miles or 7,500 miles, I'll let you interpret. I've been putting it in mine the last time I fill up before every oil change I've done..

Note it says "LR recommends only using the above product a maximum of twice between each 15K service." Bold font modified.

This isn't saying to use it twice within 15k, it's saying no more than twice. The reason is, heavy duty injector cleaner byproducts tend to find their way into the engine oil, causing contamination. This is also why serious injector cleaners are best used right before an oil change. BG site link here.

The way I read the TSB above, it's recommending use of BG 44K only in case of a problem, "a suspected ‘clogged’ injector (misfire DTC maybe stored)", before spending $$$$ to replace the injectors. And the root cause of this particular problem ("poor quality fuel"), IMO, tends to be using non-Top-Tier fuel. See if your favorite station is on the list (link), also read the FAQ's. Using cheap gas is one of the worst ways to save money, although I expect most LR4 owners wouldn't be doing this in the first place. (??)

 

[ryanjl]

Yeah, that's why I use this right before an oil change. Probably overkill.

 

[Saltyfly]

I’ve read that the heavy duty fuel injector cleaners can also be harsh on the o2 sensors as well. Is this the case with this BG 44k?

I’m going to start changing my oil every 7,500 (I just don’t trust 15k oil, and have read it could contribute to these timing chain issues), so I may start running the injector cleaner before every other oil change to maintain mr new injectors. I also only use Chevron supreme.

 

[gsxr]

I’ve read that the heavy duty fuel injector cleaners can also be harsh on the o2 sensors as well. Is this the case with this BG 44k?

Excellent question. I'm not positive, but I suspect that is related to the "max twice within 15kmi" limit. (??)

I’m going to start changing my oil every 7,500 (I just don’t trust 15k oil, and have read it could contribute to these timing chain issues)...

I also don't trust the oil to 15kmi. I'm going with 10kmi intervals personally, and may drop that a bit depending on time/miles. I posted an oil analysis in a different thread, after 10kmi with the dealer oil. As I mentioned in the other thread, my theory is the timing chain issues may be due to either using the wrong oil and 15kmi intervals (i.e., an oil that is not able to sustain proper lubrication to 15kmi), or going beyond 15kmi even with the correct oil. If multiple people could prove all oil changes performed at the dealer at 15kmi or less between changes, and STILL had chain failures, it would kinda **** my theory.

...so I may start running the injector cleaner before every other oil change to maintain mr new injectors. I also only use Chevron supreme.

In general, once the injectors are clean, there should be little need for heavy duty cleaning doses (i.e., full can of BG 44K) proactively. Same for new injectors, if you always use Top Tier fuel, additives are almost never needed. I'd use a few ounces of Red Line SI-1 near oil change time as a 'maintenance' dose, if you want to do something along those lines. 44K is pretty heavy duty stuff that's more designed for fixing injectors that are not working properly. Probably overkill on an engine that is running well.