Project Dark Knight Rising

[Tapps33]

Ok, today's progress...or rather for the last 2 days....sorry, yesterday was a LONG day and I didn't have it in me to post last night.

Last night I set the main studs with Loctite thread locker red on the in block portion of the stud, then used ARP ultra lube on the washers/nuts to torque them to 60lb-ft. (in 3 increments...30lb-ft, then 45lb-ft, then finally 60 lb-ft). As for the main studs, the part numbers I used are: ARP M10 AM4.000-1LB. (these are ARP 2000 spec material). Jury is still out as to whether I'll have to grind the block girdle a little. Others who have made the swap to main studs have had to grind the girdle a little to ensure the main studs don't interfere with the girdle.

After the main studs, I torqued the shoulder and then external side main bolts . The "shoulder" bolts are ARP kit 661-1014 (24 lb-ft torque spec) and the external side main cap bolts were ARP kit 661-1007 (24 lb-ft torque spec). A piece of advice, DON'T LOSE THE EXTERNAL WASHERS! They are rubber embedded steel washers to ensure no oil leaking out of the block. I haven't been able to source new ones, so I had to re-use the old ones.

Today I torqued my rod bolts to 60 lb-ft in the same 3 step increment. The road bolt kit is: 201-6001. It's actually for a BMW 4.0L S65 engine...but they are a perfect match for the stock bolts and they're ARP CA 625+ material....so significantly stronger than stock.

Shifting gears, I went back to my transmission because the new output shaft bushing I ordered came in! I was able to get it into the output shaft nicely, and then began the re-assembly of the C and E clutch hub assemblies. Everything seems to be to spec thus far, but all I can do is take it one step at a time.

I'll do better and get some more pics tomorrow...but in truth, without the videos from @curmudgeontransmission and Gary Ferraro...and the ZF manual for additional pictures, instructions and tolerance specs, I'd be up a creek with this one! I haven't taken many pics because I've been too busy watching and rewatching their videos, then reading the manual, then looking at the refresh kit, then the videos, then the manual....and well, you get the idea.

Thankfully, I already did the Sonnax Zip kit to the mechatronic for this LR4, and since I'll have to swap them for everything to work nicely, I don't have to mess with the mechatronic at all. Hopefully, the LR4 mechatronic will work properly in the RRS SC transmission. (In theory the transmissions are identical except for one extra spray in the SC version...supposedly....time will tell)

Tomorrow's goals are to get the rest of the transmission back together, and then get the girdle on and the head studs set....possibly bolt the heads down. We'll just have to see how much time I actually have tomorrow.

 

[Tapps33]

Ok, so today wasn't 100% as productive as I'd hoped, but it was pretty decent none the less.

First I messed with the transmission. Long story short, I think I damaged the B Clutch piston assemble when I took it apart. I tried too get it back together and messed it up even more. So, eBay to the rescue! And I have an authentic ZF 6HP28 B clutch drum loaded and ready to go! This time I won't take it apart, cause in reality, there's only 3 o-ring's that need to be replaced. Unfortunately when I consult the manual, it looks like the press tool I have isn't quite large enough to seat and press down on the bellvelle plate appropriately to compress the piston enough to reveal the snap ring recesses. To add insult to injury, the cheap-o-matic press I ordered from Amazon doesn't have a large enough opening to slide the drum shaft inbetween is the "adjustable" press wouldn't work either. (SMH).

Luckily though, the rest seemed to go back together nicely. Although there was a lot of back and forth between videos and manuals and diagrams to ensure I didn't miss anything.

On a slightly side topic, I figured out the difference between the NA and SC transmissions....or at least this is according to a friend who took them both apart side by side:

the 4 sprag vs the 3 sprag planet:

4 sprag planet:

the 3 sprag planet:

The piece of this puzzle I don't know about is whether the NA mechatronic in the SC transmission is going to have any line pressure issues due to the difference. Hopefully the adaptive values will be able to compensate for any differences.

 

[Tapps33]

Sorry, it only lets me post 5 pics at a time, so I have to break my posts up a little bit.

After I hit the stopping point with the transmission....cause the B clutch goes into the case next...and well...I don't exactly have one yet...I shifted back to the engine.

The engine tried my patience and forced me into an existential crisis. Thankfully I overcame the issue and have moved on...mainly because I don't want to buy a 3rd of every part I've already bought....twice!!

What am I talking about? Simple, the windage tray as the LR manual refers to it.

This is where I stopped last night. Everything was good, torqued to spec...yay! If you look at where the main stud are on both the front and rear main cap, it was close enough I decided to do a little grinding to ensure clearance.

And just like that, PRESTO!! everything fits!

Now, for those of you who are eagle eyed AJ133 builders, you may have noticed the HP fuel pump cam sprocket looks a little funny....and that's because it does! This engine was one of the original 6.35mm timing gear engines. While I actually prefer the 6.35mm chains to the update 8mm style, it's virtually impossible to get any 6.35mm parts, so, 8mm swap here we come! Luckily, the oil pump sprocket was cheap, and you can buy that as a lone part in some timing chain kits. The Fuel pump cam sprocket is a whole different story. I looked everywhere and couldn't find it...I even called an LR dealership and they said it wasn't sold by itself. So, yet again I went back to eBay for support and bought a used windage tray that have the fuel pump cam still attached.

Here's where the existential crisis occurred. When I removed the fuel cam from the existing windage tray, I discovered the center "bushing" space for the fuel cam was boogered up...much like the spun bearing. Obviously, I didn't want to re-use the windage tray as I'm worried about follow on deterioration of the cam journal and potential fuel cam failure. NO WORRIES, I have another tray! BUUUUUUUUUUUT......it's a newer style and isn't as long as the old style. The newer style doesn't bolt to the rear main cap.

The question I struggled with is whether this tray was ever installed in an SC engine, or if it was strictly a NA V8 thing? Long story short, I think the answer is LR went to this windage tray when they started producing the SCV6. Thankfully though, it's the same tray for the SCV6 and SCV8. So, after wrestling with the, "will it be strong enough....will the rear main cap flex....is the galling really that bad? I decided it'll work just fine and I've known a couple of guys running Jag's that have used this tray and their cars are still doing great!

For those of you wondering, here's a side by side of the different sprockets:

Oh, and this is the "messed up" journal:

Oh yeah, and before I forget, here's the disclaimer: I am not the definitive source for any of this information. Check your manuals and all the appropriate documentation for all specific values, to include torque specs, transmission specs etc... And feel free to call me out if you see me make a glaring mistake! I'd rather have someone catch it and let me know than miss it and blow up the engine!

One final disclaimer; Please excuse the messy garage. I'm prepping for a move and have pulled all the spare junk I normally pack and take with me and am getting ready to donate it. Unfortunately because I move every couple of years, it's not all in one place...now it's in a few piles on the ground. Sometime soon it's all going to get donated or chucked. I can't keep bringing it with me, especially since I'm not sure if I'll even have a garage or shop for the next 2-3 years.....gulp....I may die.

 

[Tapps33]

Well, another day or two, and honestly not too much accomplished. But I did manage to get my mother-in-law moved from one facility to another, and that's almost bigger than the engine....almost.

Thankfully, when I got home last night, the new B clutch drum....actually it was the B, A and E drums all assembled and ready to install...if I wanted to install used parts. My A and E drums were final and are pictured above. (it's the pic with the connected drums and shafts sticking out of both sides....laying on it's side).

The tricky drum was the B drum...if you watch the videos I posted, @curmudgeontransmission never shows you how to take the drums apart...just the before and after shots. Then, he shows you how they go back together in the recase video, but never how to actually work it on the press. No disrespect to him, cause without his videos I may have not attempted this rebuild.

A few lessons learned....

1. I tried using the cheap-o-matic press from amazon and it didn't really work. I had my adapt-a-case spring compressor for my old dodge 48re building days and it worked for all but 1 of the drums...including the B drum. HOWEVER!!!! Lesson learned, when you compress the bellvelle plate in this drum, you can over-compress it, and it'll jam the "top" retaining snap ring. FYI, there are 2 snap rings for this assembly, one on top of the bellvelle plate, and one underneath it.

You can kinda see in the pic below, the lower snap ring sits in a recess in the center shaft of the drum. The "upper" snap ring sits in the recess of the "fingers" of the small balance piston...with a slight catch. The retaining ring for the bellvelle plate has a lip to it. It sits on top of the bellvelle spring fingers and has a lip to it that holds the snap ring in the grooves in the piston fingers. And this is where I learned a hard lesson...ok, one of the two places. I found out that you can't over compress the bellvelle plate or it binds and you can't get the snap ring over the lip in the retaining ring and into the groove. Not gonna lie, I booogered mine up so bad I had to find a new one on eBay.

This is the lower snap ring the sits that sits in the groove in the drum shaft:

And here's where I learned lesson number 2 the hard way. the lower piston DOESN'T compress!!!!! Cause if you do, you break the little feet off the balance piston and have to buy a new one!!!!

It's hard to see in this pic, but those little tabs probably stuck out about another mm or 2 which kept the pistons from settling lower on the shaft. Will it really make a difference? I have no idea, but I didn't want to take the chance.

The solution to the issue of removing the lower snap ring is to start with the small snap ring pliers, then use a flat head screw driver as a "shim" to hold the snap ring opening a little, then get the BIG snap ring pliers and it'll have enough throw to expand the ring enough to get it off the shaft while staying inside the piston fingers.

So, back to my progress:

After I got the eBay drum in, I reluctantly took it apart, because I realized the brand new bushings I installed on the "original" B drum couldn't be transferred without destroying them. So, I took the original apart, transferred my new o-rings to the pistons I had just purchased and put it all back in the original drum. BOOM! problem solved!

Then the B clutch went into the trans case, followed by the hub assembly (A and E clutch drums, input and intermediate shafts), then the pump assembly....new washers on the pump screws and everything was torqued to spec.

Transmission complete....until I pull the trans out of my LR4, then I'll transfer the mechatronic and new style trans pan to this transmission. Seems a bit of a waste to throw those away. I put them on when re-doing the heads...everything's brand new, but never cranked the engine.

 

[Tapps33]

In other events, while I wait for my block inserts to arrive, cause my machinist wanted to wait to install them, and I sorta used them on the NA engine during the head repair project.

Soooo....I decided to start getting the heads in order. My machinist installed the new exhaust valves, and reworked all the valves and valve seats.

Fun fact, the NA intake valves are significantly shorter than the SC valves. This is due to the variable valve lift system. The SC engine doesn't have variable lift...so both cams look like regular cams...no triple lobe craziness!

Because I waited so long to reassemble everything I've had a little bit of surface rust build up on most of the cast iron parts...of which the camshafts are...so before I start checking the cam buckets, I had to address the state of my parts.

Thankfully, all the rust is barely on the surface, so a little work with a light weight wire wheel and...

Clearly you can see the difference. I've checked the cams, and there's no pitting or breaking down of the cams. Clearly, the humidity here in Memphis got to them.

And, all done:

Well, before I call it a night tonight, here's another fun fact...and one I really just learned about this engine. I'm slightly embarrassed to admit I've never really paid attention to this, but when the engine is 100% in timing alignment, it's not actually at TDC!!!! It's 45 degrees beyond TDC. Which makes sense because I couldn't figure out why, when I lined the crank position marks up and the key was at the 6 o'clock position, the #1 piston had already moved down in the cylinder about 1" or so.

This drove me nuts and I kept trying to figure out why, then I re-read the service manual, and it states that the timing marks all line up at 45 degrees after TDC because that allows you to rotate the cam shafts without any issues. AKA, you won't smack a valve into a piston if all the timing marks are lined up....especially for the crank.

Here are the crank alignment marks:

Also, the key way should be at the 6 o'clock position.

Ok, that's all for today. Probably gonna be a little quiet for a couple days as I'm on travel, but perhaps Tuesday I'll get a little done before traveling again for the weekend.

 

[Tapps33]

Hey Folks, sorry for the delay, but I've been a little busy putting out fires around here, and more importantly, working on my 2010 LR4. FYI, if I knew then what I know now, I NEVER would have started down the Bosch infotainment transplant into my 2010. To say it has been an emotional roller coaster would be an understatement. The good news is that I think I've finally cracked the code, and have most everything reprogrammed. Now I just need a little tech support from my SDD suppliers and I think we'll be good to go!

As for this particular project, I really haven't gotten too much further. Actually, one could say I've back tracked.

A little history about this particular engine. It's a Jag AJ133, not a LR. So, I purchased the associated oil pan and pick up to convert it back to a LR engine. However, I bought it for $3500...because it had a "slight knock." Turns out the slight knock was a spun #1 bearing and #2 was on its way out. Thankfully, I had a spare crank laying around and the machinist was in business. Why the spare crank? Easy, I had originally intended to simply convert my NA V8 block to the SC engine...until I learned about the block differences. Needless to say, I had found someone who was selling everything except the block from a blown SC engine....hence the spare crank.

Since I know most of you probably don't care about that, I'll explain my back tracking. I had all the machine work done to the engine, and had the block through the parts washer several times. BUT, there are oil squirters on the under side of the SC block. I haven't removed them, nor checked to see if they were blocked or damaged in any way. Since they're responsible for spraying "cooling oil on the under side of the pistons, and by default onto the rod bearings, I figured it best to pull them real quick and ensure they were clean and the check ball was free moving. Unfortunately, this mean pulling the engine girdle back off. The good news is that I got it done. It really wasn't too back since I had a pair of long needle nose pliers to get them in and out. FYI, the retaining bolts are a T30. You also have to rotate the crank to expose each of them individually.

All in all, they're all clean, and I did had 2 of the 4 that the check ball was stuck on...a little assembly lube and they're good to go!

Tomorrow I'll get a little more aggressive with the build as I've now officially been scheduled with 3 weeks to get out of the house. That said, hopefully I'll spend the morning re-flashing some of my modules on my 2010 so that I can finally put that project to bed!

Here's a quick pic of where these oil squirters are. FYI, this is from the bottom looking up, or, if you have the engine on a stand like I do, this is looking down through the crank.

 

[Tapps33]

Hey All! Sorry for the delays, it's been a crazy week, and I've done a lot to the engine, it just doesn't seem like it. Most of the week I spent switching between getting the house on the market, and getting the cam followers appropriately sized.

I ended up buying roughly 22 new buckets in an attempt to keep them all "stock." Anyway, I'll attach the spread sheet I used to help keep track of everything, but the specs are as follows:

Intake Cam to follower clearance: .2mm (+/- .02mm)
Exhaust Cam to follower clearance: .25mm (+/- .02mm)

Unfortunately, I can't attach the spreadsheet I used, but the formulas I came up with...only to find them in the manual are as follows:

(current clearance - desired clearance) + original cam bucket thickness = New cam bucket thickness

Now, here's where things get a little tricky... My gap measurement tools, had size differences that were outside of the actual tolerances. ie, it jumps from .175mm to .203mm to .229mm to .254mm. So, you can see how there's a little bit of guess work involved...hence why I bought 19 cam followers, then bought 3 more a day later...I was just "this much" off on my measurements.

Here's the spreadsheet...at a bare minimum, you can source the various thickness part numbers and current associated prices at Palm Beach Land Rover...FYI, my local LR dealership wanted to charge me triple...yes, triple what Palm Beach is charging...til I asked them to price match.

After I finally got everything sized on the closer side of the spectrum, aka intakes between .18mm - .2mm and exhausts between .23mm to .25mm, it was finally time to set my heads!

Before I set my heads, I needed to finish the install of the block stud sleeves. A couple things about the kit I used; Norm Huhn at Huhn solutions goes over pretty much everything I'm about to tell you in his installation instructions, so fear not, you can do this right out of the box. Moreover, you can even do this with the engine in the car...it's just A LOT more difficult. But some good wobble gears and socket drill chucks will help you succeed. That said, whether the block is in the car or on a stand, the process is the same, and there really isn't a good way to "automate it." Just ask my machinist who drilled and tapped this block. (I did the NA block in the car). Anyway, it's going to take a little time, but I wanted to show you the difference in "grabbing" strength between the standard M11 head bolts and the new inserts:

Even though this engine came stock with the M11 head bolts, the increased grab on the aluminum, then the full steel to steel head stud engagement, I was sold! I've blown head gaskets before, and this is just a little extra insurance...especially since this is the supercharged engine.

In order to install these to the correct depth, I had to measure for myself as I am running head studs and not head bolts...although, in theory they should be set at the same depth if the studs were sized appropriately. Once I determined the proper depth, I marked my installer tool with tape...so they'd all be the same. One quick "gotcha" on these inserts, the start of the thread is actually like 3/8" below the top of the insert, so be sure to account for that with your install.

One final tip with these inserts...and admittedly, something I didn't do with my NA engine. once you get the new sleeve holes drilled and tapped, run an insert down there before you try and thread lock them into place....I spent roughly 3 days extracting and repairing one from my NA block because it got jammed.

FYI, for this engine, I ran a stud into one of my inserts and then ran it down into the block almost all the way to the bottom, then back up. FYI, Norm gives you 21 inserts, and you only need 20, so 1 of them was my "thread chaser." Also, I purchased an additional tap that reaches further down and made sure I tapped all the way to the bottom of the new hole...because I wasn't 100% sure where the inserts were going to sit with the new head studs.

EDIT!!!

I totally forgot! I had to drill the head bolt/stud holes as the base of the studs is M11, but the top portion is 7/16....which is just "a little too big" for the existing holes. I wish I would have figured that out sooner and I would have had the machinist do it cause then I could have put the heads in the parts washer to clean all the shavings off...instead it was a lot of brake cleaner, a vacuum cleaner and compressed air...and I'm pretty sure I missed some material....hopefully the filters catch it!!!

 

[Tapps33]

Continuing on, prior to installing the inserts, I did clean up the block a little. I used a nice sanding block and some 320 grit sand paper to just clean the mating surface. Anything heavier duty tends to really remove material faster than I'd like it to and then you find yourself "not flat."

After the cleaning was complete, I installed the steel inserts, then hand installed the head studs:

For those of you paying attention, yes, that's copper coat. Even though the head gasket is MLS with hylomar sealant on it, I've always erred on the side of caution, and unless someone know some thing I don't Hylomar + Copper Coat = amazing sealing power!

FYI, for me, the hardest part of the entire head installation process was waiting 15-20 mins for the copper coat to tack up! I hate waiting!...twice!

FYI, with the head studs in place, it was a very snug fit and I had to use a rubber mallet to coerce the heads all the way onto the block...but they lined up and were torqued to spec.

Torque specs on the ARP studs are 80ft-lbs in three steps. (I did 40ftlb, 60ftlb, then 80ftlb.). OE head bolt specs are: 20NM, then 35NM, then an additional 90 degrees, then the final is an additional 120 degrees.

I'm not really sure what the actual torque difference is, but if it's like the main studs, the values are very similar. However, the 7/16" stud is significantly stronger than the stock TTY bolt. I dunno I could be wrong too, time will tell.

All seated and ready for cams/cam followers, although, I'm going to double check the torque tomorrow before I install the cams.

Oh yeah, and for those eagle eyed scouts, I have not set the timing on the block yet, but I will tomorrow. Before I install the cams, I'll instal the flex plate and associated lock...then the cams and cam lock. Which btw, is A LOT easier when the engine isn't sitting in the engine bay! LOL!

All mounted and ready to go! Oh yeah, I finally got around to installing the oil pump and pick up tubes...again. (I used a tap to thread chase the baffle plate holes as I'd used thread locker like 2 or 3 times and just felt it best to clean the holes out.)

 

[Tapps33]

Not much accomplished yesterday, but I double checked the torque on all the head studs, and installed the cam followers and cams.

Torque pattern on the camshaft keepers surprised me a little as it's not a start in the middle and work your way out ward. You start from the front and work back. This is per the workshop manual.
FYI, keeper torque specs is 13NM.

Also, I forgot to include the ARP part numbers in case anyone else decides to go the stud route. **Disclaimer** If you use head studs, you will not have enough room in the engine bay to remove the cylinder head should the need arise...I don't think....

ARP part numbers:
ATP6.600-1LUB (Studs M11 1.75 base, 7/16-20 top end)
300-8303 - (nuts - 7/16-20)
200-8510 - (washers)

I'm going to temporarily install the flex plate tonight and get all the crank locks in place...along with the cam locks, and then start installing the timing gear tomorrow.

 

[jjvd21]

Fantastic thread!!