Troubleshooting coolant vacuum fill failure

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Land Rover Joe

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Thanks for your note and follow-up @Rendak .

Perhaps I lost the plot or am just thick...but what is your conclusion?

A loose lower radiator hose would not drain coolant into your Engine sump.....so I am trying to connect that hose with your oil pan.
 

Rendak

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@Land Rover Joe I think the loose lower radiator hose dumped coolant faster than the sensor could measure the temperature increase and so even though the engine was only on for about another 15 to 30 seconds after it went into limp mode, it was at operating temperature and then rose well above to overheat and warp the heads, causing a head gasket breach. When I got home and reattached the hose properly and then tried to do a vacuum fill for fresh coolant and noticed I couldn't get a vacuum, I just filled with enough coolant to do a pressure test to locate the leak and when I began pumping to create pressure and didn't get much of any, it was because the coolant was being pumped into places it shouldn't go and found its way down to the oil pan.
 

Rover Range

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A coolant temp sensor doesn't measure air. Unfortunately, lots of overheated engines because of this.

Coolant in the oil pan could be a cracked cylinder head.
 

Rendak

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I could be wrong (I'm not an experienced JLR mechanic) but from what I'm hearing in this thread as well as from the JLR mechanic I talked to, the tests that can be done to diagnose a head gasket breach, a cracked cylinder head, and/or any similar engine damage are pretty darn accurate, but a true confirmation requires some way of laying one's own eyes on the damage (whether that's via borescope or taking the engine apart enough to get to where the damage is suspected). It was the opinion of the JLR mechanic I talked to that this kind of confirmation is generally not worth the cost in labor -- every scenario is unique, but more often than not, seeing coolant in the oil pan or in a combustion chamber or the engine failing a compression test or a leak down test is the kiss of death for the engine. Would anyone else disagree with this? I know @Land Rover Joe is of the opinion that patient and thorough DIY diagnostics is worth the time and effort, and I respect that (and I respect his nuanced argument for why "it depends").

I guess for me right now, the net loss price tag that I'd accept / the level of effort that I'd be willing to spend to give this vehicle a second life would be no more than -$12k and maybe a couple weeks more of 2 hour blocks of time under the hood. And here are the options as I see them now, all with pretty much ballpark figures I think, certainly not accurate to within say +/- $1k or so:

Option 1As I think I mentioned before, if I sell the vehicle inoperable and as-is I'd probably take around a $12k loss and 0 additional man-hours under the hood.
Option 2If I cut my losses on the engine and get a remanufactured one put in professionally, that's $16-18k on top of the $16k I purchased the vehicle for (and I own it outright), or a total cost of $32-34k for a vehicle with essentially a new engine (or at least one with a fresh timing chain, upgraded sleeves in the cylinders, other various upgrades); not sure how much I could sell the vehicle for if I wanted to just turn around and get out of Land Rover ownership and back over to Lexus -- but I'd find it hard to believe that I could get close to what I paid for it originally plus nearly the full cost of the engine -- would love folks thoughts though. As it stands now though, my somewhat educated guess would be maybe a $5-$9k net loss on sale (maybe less?) and 0 additional man-hours under the hood.
Option 3Finally, if I decide to buy a low-mileage used engine (like this one on eBay) and have a friend with an engine hoist help me get the old engine out and then mostly put the new one in myself + swap over the supercharger, the radiator, cooling system that I just refreshed, and potentially a lot of additional parts, I might be able to save $6-8k in comparison to Option 1's professional reman engine install, but the additional number of man-hours would be double digits (maybe triple digits?) and there's non-trivial risk that I find myself in over my head.

So I guess at the end of the day, I'm looking at a max of about a $12k loss and at minimum maybe a few thousand less. So the difference between the options is really maybe $6k or so?

I'm glad I typed all this out. I'm sure some of it isn't accurate, but a notional estimate of the cost of each option and how they compare makes it easier for me to make a decision. Not that I've made it yet, but I think I'm closer. ;)
 
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ugmw177

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assuming your engine is toast, selling as is, the LR4s in our area only go for $2-4k if you can find a buyer. A good sorted LR4 with less than 100k miles probably tops out at a realistic price of say 15-20k. You would never recover the cost of a new engine plus the purchase price but it would i assume make a nice reliable car to keep and drive for a long time. just my $.02
 

powershift

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If I had the cash I'd get a new reman or a used engine and go through it before installing it making sure it too wasn't overheated or whatever. Do the chain deal, vacuum pump, everything that normally fails. You take risks buying used so that short block for $8k is less money, but could be a roll of the dice and have a hidden problem from being overheated (warped heads, cracked head gasket, warped block) that can't be seen and/or was cleaned up where a quality $14k reman will have a warranty and will last 200k mi properly maintained. You won't need the warranty if they do it right.


For LR4 prices those quoted above seem low now, my rig was $15k and not fully sorted until $30k at 97k miles. I'd love to have found a fully sorted rig but they are hard to find. One guy wanted $25k for his LR4 with the chain work done and I felt it was too much, not the right colors, no HD, wasn't fully sorted (they all lie).

No regrets at all and would do it again. Only thing I'd do different is start sooner, but I didn't discover the LR4 until one came up on Craigslist. I test drove it and I knew it was what I wanted. It had problems so I passed. But now 115k miles on the one I found in CA and I love it lol. To me its worth more than $30k because I still wouldn't find antying that fits what I need until jumping to a Defender or Bronco and the 110 needs a V8 or nothing. The Bronco isn't really setup for overlanding like I want. But its body on frame, lockers, looks pretty tight, slow on the freeway, costs $60k and its ball-less.
 

Land Rover Joe

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@Land Rover Joe I think the loose lower radiator hose dumped coolant faster than the sensor could measure the temperature increase and so even though the engine was only on for about another 15 to 30 seconds after it went into limp mode, it was at operating temperature and then rose well above to overheat and warp the heads, causing a head gasket breach. When I got home and reattached the hose properly and then tried to do a vacuum fill for fresh coolant and noticed I couldn't get a vacuum, I just filled with enough coolant to do a pressure test to locate the leak and when I began pumping to create pressure and didn't get much of any, it was because the coolant was being pumped into places it shouldn't go and found its way down to the oil pan.
Thanks @Rendak

Yikes.

My vote goes for a rebuild but to state the obvious (my superpower) - you will need to get to what the problem is before ripping anything open.

In terms of cost - benefit: I can't tell you what is best for you and your situation.

What I can say is that I don't think there is anyone left on this (LR4) forum from 10 years ago...because all those folks moved on (for their own good reasons). Largely they simply didn't want to continue with the maintenance needed to keep these trucks running. So no shame in "cutting your loses". In fact, that was basically my plan just over a year ago.

Good luck!
 

greiswig

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Is it the case that warped heads (which presumably are what cause the head gasket leaks, and not actual cracks in the heads)...is it true that warped heads on these engines are not recoverable? It seems odd to me that a relatively brief engine overheat would warp things so badly that you just have to write off the engine, but maybe I'm wrong.

I've rebuilt a couple of engines with warped heads, and as long as they're decked well, I've gotten good results out of rebuilding with the existing engine. Tedious? Yes, but less expensive than buying either new or rebuilt, and I know how well it was put together.
 

powershift

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In the days of iron blocks if you overheated the engine it wasn't as big of a problem. Aluminum heads warping and cracked head gasket were less involved to fix because you wouldn't hurt the block. Put new heads and gaskets on and thats it. But with an aluminum block for me they are one and done.
 

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