5.0 supercharged into an LR4?

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Tapps33

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Unfortunately, no, not yet. Moving in and settling in has taken longer/more effort than I thought. (All the crap my building inspector missed isn't helping either.). More importantly, I think I've decided to go for a higher horsepower build which involves swapping out the internals for some high quality forged stuff.

The first item on my "to do" list is to have Darton design and make some MID Sleeves for our blocks. I've spoken to their lead machinist, who happens to own the MID Sleeve patent, and he thinks he can engineer a set of sleeves for our blocks. THIS IS HUGE!!! Not just from a strength standpoint, but from a longevity stand point! If Darton makes these sleeves, we no longer have to trash our blocks if we slip a timing chain. That's always been the Achilles heel for these engines....just a little bit of damage and the block was not serviceable. This, in theory, will address that! Not to mention it'll convert our blocks from open deck to semi-closed deck....significantly stronger!

I'm trying to track down a "junk" block to send to Darton as the machinist said he couldn't guarantee he wouldn't mess up the prototype block and requested and junk block to use before he modified my SC block. I' think I've got a lead on one around here, but it's one of those, "I sent the vehicle to have the engine swapped, and I asked for the block back, but the timeline keeps slipping and I don't know when I'll get it." So, if anyone has, or knows of a blown/scrapped block, I'm more than interested! Just post here or PM me! Also, SC or NA block is irrelevant. Aside from the oil squirters, they're identical and either will work for the sleeve process.

The down side to all of this is the fact that it's at least 2-3 months before the sleeves will be designed. Moreover, if I can get enough people together and order more than 40 sleeves, the price drops significantly. If I can't it'll be $400 per sleeve. Which is a bit steep, but worth it long term if it does what I need it to do for my build, and give everyone else an option for their engines should they run into problems. Once I have the junk block into Darton, I'll probably put out a call to all those around, LR and Jag folks and see if we can get a large enough order to drive the cost down.

At the end of the day, the SC LR4 is still coming, just taking longer than I'd hoped....I'm trying to get this engine somewhere in the 800-1000HP range. In theory it's doable, but budget is a HUGE issue, so we'll see what the reality ends up being.
 

f1racer328

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I'm trying to get this engine somewhere in the 800-1000HP range
Are you planning any drivetrain upgrades?


I'm going to throw one of these in my car since I've ruined two driveshafts (while I was under warranty) with my stock engine...
 

Tapps33

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Actually, I have a few ideas, but nothing has been set in stone yet as I'm still researching....and by "I," I mean there are a few of us working in the background to figure all this junk out.

I'm going to run the SC transmission, which is virtually identical to the NA transmission except the SC has a 4 sprag planetary and the NA has a 3 sprag planetary. For ease of swap, I'm going to run the NA computer, but as I understand it, there really isn't any difference as far as line pressures are concerned. We've also been able to determine that a hybrid Ford/LR trans is possible as ZF builds the trans for the mustang and F150 to name a few. The good news is that they make billet shafts for the Ford ZF trans....the bad news is that the spline pattern is slightly different, so there's a little more swapping/machining to get everything to line up and play right. That said, with billet shafts, the trans should be able to hold a decent amount of power. I mean in theory the stock trans will hold at least 650HP....or at least the folks at Velocity AP don't recommend any trans strengthening for the power upgrades which take the SC engine into the 650HP range.

I'm also trying to find a nice triple disk converter for it. I believe the OE is only a single....it may be worth checking with Rimmer brothers as I have a remanufactured one from them ready to go in...my current LR4 TC is failing.

As for the aforementioned Propshaft Carrier upgrade, that kinda sounds like a no brainer! Especially since I've got some vibration around 65mph currently....and I've replaced all the rotors/pads and had the wheels/tires balanced. So, it would make sense! And anything I can do to stiffen the system up is a bonus.

There's always the custom driveshaft route too....although in truth, I've never really looked under there to see if it's a good idea....it could definitely limit some things by getting rid of the 2 piece design.

Here's what I put in my truck....and probably what I'd use if I decide to go the 1 piece route: (disregard the whole "dodge" part...I'll just have them custom make one for our applications....but you'll get the idea.)

 

Tapps33

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Hello all! Thought I'd give you all a quick update. The engine isn't in the vehicle yet, but I was finally able to source a scrapped AJ133 block to send to Racing Engine Designs (aka Darton's prototype shop). Hopefully in a couple of months they'll get the MID sleeves designed for the AJ133 block and then I'll send them mine for sleeving. In the mean time I plan on working with Comp Cams to see if we can get a better cam for our engines....sorry, just the SC version. Although one for the NA version would be nice too.

It's taking longer than I'd like, but I feel like I'm making it stronger and better as I go....yes, I totally know I could just build it stock and drop it in.....and I'm not going to lie, as the costs start to add up....even more than they already have...I may resort to a stock build...but for now, power and reliability is the name of the game.
 

BigBriDogGuy

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Tapps33, I like the concept. When I was shopping for vehicles, there were two Land Rover products being sold by private owners locally that I test drove. The first was a 2012 SC Range Rover. The second was a 2011 LR4, that I bought. The Range Rover had a lot of go. The LR4 had a smooth ride and didn't feel underpowered. But, the idea of the SC v8 engine in the LR4 seems like the best of both worlds.

Since they are both Land Rover products with similar engines, you would think that the swap out would be easy. But, as they say, it's always easy - until it's not.

Sounds like you are going in a bit different direction. In your view, is it feasible to do a direct swap with a few reasonable adaptations to make it work? Or, do you start to change one thing and that means you need to change others until it gets a lot more involved than simply swapping motors?
 

Tapps33

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Sorry for the delayed response, I was on travel and just got back to my laptop.

As to your question, the answer is yes.....we think.

Right now there are 2 schools of thought:

The first school of thought is that you can drop the SC engine right in, swap the engine wiring harness over, and for ease of swap, the engine bay harness as well. (This is not required, but you are going to have to wire in the SC intercooler pump). In theory, you'll need to add the SC cooler to the radiator stack, but as one of the posting members can attest to, it's fairly simple and the LR4 was already set up to do it...even back in 2010. (or at least 2012 as that was his year model). At that point, you'll need to use the SDD tool....yes, the SDD tool, GAP won't do it, to reprogram the security key to allow the SC engine PCM to be added even though it has a different VIN coded to it. (Unless of course you can find someone with a ****** ECM and it'll auto program the first time you plug it up, but non of the aftermarket "eco companies" are willing to do it, so it'd probably have to come direct from JLR for a small fortune). In theory, once you're at that point all should be well and good after you update the CCF to reflect all the engine differences. Let me just stress that aside from one person on this forum chiming in that he has indeed accomplished this, and jlrmongoose (where I got my SDD tool) stating it's possible, no one has actually completed it yet. This is the path that I'm following, I have just decided that I really want to build my engine a little stronger and better than stock, and it's slowing my progress down a little....ok, a lot.

The second school of thought is that you'll need to swap all of the main security key modules from a donor RRS SC to your LR4. (Engine PCM, BCM, ABS, Instrument cluster, KVM, CJB, I feel like there's one or two more, I just can't remember them off the top of my head) Obviously, this is a little more intrusive of a swap, but to date, the only way we've proven it can be done....sorta. I say sorta, because the gentleman who accomplished this is fighting with the RRS hardware as the system still thinks the adaptive dynamic suspension system is installed...which it's not...and it's giving him a suspension fault and while the engine runs fine, the suspension is sitting on the stops and won't work until it can resolve itself. He has disabled it in the CCF, and has been working very closely with GAP to reprogram/update his modules, but this is the last hurdle he needs to overcome to be 100% up and running. That said, there's a chance either his ABS or BCM may have some water damage and may be faulty, hence the fact it won't take the new configuration. He's still working to resolve the issue, but is stuck working in very limited bursts due to schedule issues.

So the overly long winded answer to your question is yes, in theory, just a few mods should transplant the engine into the LR4, especially if you buy either a low mileage running engine, or a completely rebuilt one. I bought a used running engine, "with a slight knock" which turned out to be a spun bearing...so that's why I've had to tear mine all the way down. I have all the parts to put it back together stock...but where's the fun in that? if 510HP is fun, 800 should be REALLY fun!
 

BigBriDogGuy

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800 HP does sound like fun! I don't need that much. In fact, I don't need anymore than the stock LR4 v8 engine provides. My thing is I'm thinking I'm into this rig for the long haul and, at some point, that probably means an engine rebuild or swap. Right now, I'm at just a tick north of 100,000 miles. That should be fine but, after reading these posts, I realize it's not guaranteed. If, or when, I get that deep into it, my sense is I might as well make a few upgrades in the process. The supercharged v8 seems like the natural choice, as long as it's possible and not more trouble than it's worth.

Hope you get your project completed soon. Excited to see the results.
 
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Tapps33

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Yeah,
800 HP does sound like fun! I don't need that much. In fact, I don't need anymore than the stock LR4 v8 engine provides. My thing is I'm thinking I'm into this rig for the long haul and, at some point, that probably means an engine rebuild or swap. Right now, I'm at just a tick north of 100,000 miles. That should be fine but, after reading these posts, I realize it's not guaranteed. If, or when, I get that deep into it, my sense is I might as well make a few upgrades in the process. The supercharged v8 seems like the natural choice, as long as it's possible and not more trouble than it's worth.

Hope you get your project completed soon. Excited to see the results.

I wouldn't say I NEED 800hp, it's just kinda one of those goals. I've had to tear everything down, and since the reality is LR parts prices are so high anyway, it's really not all that much more to build it up a little.

As a comparison, I'm doing a head gasket job on an LR4 I just bought for my son to drive (V8NA, not the 3.0SC) and when all is said and done, the parts alone are going to ring in around $6K...maybe higher. Which, if you look at the cost of used running SC engine, around $7Kish, especially if you get a lower mileage one, you can almost do the swap for the same cost. That said, labor is going to be the biggest wild card, and the fact that unless I can 100% prove this will work, most shops may not want to do the swap.

I'll say this though, I had originally planned on swapping the heads/timing chains on the "new" LR4 by lifting the body off, but opted to just pull the heads in place, and arguable, I've spent a significant amount of time getting everything off while working constrained in the engine bay. If you have access to a frame life (I do not), it'll be easier and faster to life the body and then do the work. Especially if you have the new engine ready to drop in...that'll actually be A LOT faster and easier than rebuilding in place.
 

BigBriDogGuy

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@Tapps33 how is the supercharger project coming?

Also, I had a question along those same lines. Seems like guys pretty routinely will do an LS engine swap in a Disco II, for instance, so I'm confused why a Range Rover supercharged engine would be such a problem for the LR4 to accept. In other words, why can you drop in a GM engine and the ECU doesn't care, but if you put a very similar Land Rover engine in, it results in all sorts of problems?
 

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