Just received my notice to put my deposit down on a Grenadier

[Stuart Barnes]

To those of you who plan to purchase, more power to you. I hope the Grenadier is everything you all hope it will be. What follows is my tyrannical rant/perspective of the Ineos Grenadier.

I like the concept and dislike the execution.

This was originally supposed to be a storied "utility" vehicle manufactured in Wales with it's origin in a British pub (The Grenadier) and has basically become what it claims to not to be; a conversation piece SUV for the wealthy.

Unlike the 2020+ Defender, the Grenadier was supposed to be focused on utility for agriculture, hard use in austere environments, employed by NGOs. The Grenadier is too expensive for it's alleged use case.

Instead of choosing engines with wide global parts availability and durability, not to mention reliability, they chose BMW! The I-6 Turbos are direct injected and require high quality fuels (ULSD and high octane petrol) with ZF gearboxes.

Exterior design is very good, essentially what many people find missing from the new Defender. It's the old Defender plus a sprinkle of G-Wagon and 70-Series Land Cruiser. Why provide metallic paint colors for this utilitarian form-follows-function vehicle?

Interior sucks IMHO. It does not know if it is a utility vehicle or a high-end SUV. ZF shifter is totally out of place with the cartoonish aircraft switches with painted labeling. Fancy leather steering wheel designed to wear like a saddle matches nothing else in the cabin. No rear armrest because it's a utility vehicle? Why all the boujee gloss black trim?

Magna Steyr suspension and steering look very stout and also the polar opposite of the new Defender which is great. Ruined ground clearance with low running boards, smallish wheels, and crap departure angle; why add a huge skid plate below exhaust instead of tucking-up exhaust?

This vehicle is for wealthy people who miss the Defender and are not happy the new Defender is unibody with 4-wheel independent suspension. I would put my P300 Defender 110 against this thing damn near anywhere (mud, rock, snow/ice) and expect a better result in my Defender (without active rear locker). My 2020 Defender might even tow better?

If the goal was to make British Utility vehicles (SUV and Pick-Up) better than the old Defenders they should have tried much harder to keep it made in U.K. and not compromised on powertrain; by that I mean installing performance engines rather than high duty cycle heavy duty engines. Should have chosen port injected petrol (preferably) V8 capable of running poor quality, low octane gasoline (petrol) and ideally mechanical pump direct injected turbo diesel capable of running, DF-2, DF-1 (Kerosene), JP-8. Tons of choices: Iveco, GM, Cummins, Toyota, VM Motori yet Ineos picked BMW?

Approach, departure, breakover angles all need to be improved to and 33" wheels minimum should have been fitted. It should be setup to allow factory lifts for 35" and 37" wheels.

Halo Trust is the only NGO I have seen publicize they will be using the Grenadier; guessing some might be donated by Ineos? MAG, UN, IRC, etc will not be purchasing these as fleet vehicles when they can still purchase Land Cruiser 70-Series and keep their old Defenders running. Crap fuel, irregular maintenance, and limited parts availability are key factors here.

No doubt "overlanders" and enthusiasts will purchase most if not all of the Grenadier models. So why buy an Ineos Grenadier? Is it more British since it looks like an old Defender and is manufactured in Hambach, Germany? Because it is a real farm vehicle with its BMW/ZF powertrains? Maybe because it's a real bush vehicle as there are BMW dealerships everywhere (there are many globally) though maybe not in Afghanistan, the Congo, Cambodia, etc..

I know my Defender was made in Slovakia and I am fine with that. I am also fine buying 93 octane for my P300 as it's available most places I go except out in the western U.S. where I buy 91 octane. Totally OK knowing my family hauler/weekend wheeler is not a pure agricultural utility vehicle.

I would not plan on using my vehicle for work in austere environments without tow/recovery services.

Hambach is in France, not Germany.

https://www.ineos.com/news/shared-n...f-hambach-production-site-from-mercedes-benz/

We’re I to start building vehicles. I’d try and get a factory that was already outfitted for that purpose with a workforce that already knows modern vehicle construction over a totally new site that I had to build from scratch. However sad I am that this is not being built in the UK, I think it’s a smart move on Ineos’ part.

 

[Davidinseattle]

Hambach is in France, not Germany.

https://www.ineos.com/news/shared-n...f-hambach-production-site-from-mercedes-benz/

We’re I to start building vehicles. I’d try and get a factory that was already outfitted for that purpose with a workforce that already knows modern vehicle construction over a totally new site that I had to build from scratch. However sad I am that this is not being built in the UK, I think it’s a smart move on Ineos’ part.

Yeah, the whole "building it in England" was a bit naivety on their part. Once they started bringing in the big guns, they had the good sense to follow experience. The ready made factory and work force was definitely a gift from the old defender gods for sure. Much better decision and will likely be the difference between a good launch and a very bad one.

 

[doc5339]

Hambach is in France, not Germany.

https://www.ineos.com/news/shared-n...f-hambach-production-site-from-mercedes-benz/

We’re I to start building vehicles. I’d try and get a factory that was already outfitted for that purpose with a workforce that already knows modern vehicle construction over a totally new site that I had to build from scratch. However sad I am that this is not being built in the UK, I think it’s a smart move on Ineos’ part.

Thanks for the correction Stuart. I just felt my string get pulled, so here I go again.

Ineos moving it's production site (several times) was probably a necessity, though I still see it as a huge compromise from their alleged origin at the Grenadier Pub in London. I believe this to be important in the same way some people think certain Land Rover models manufactured in Nitra, Slovakia are not real Land Rovers; while I do not believe this, I do think many potential Grenadier buyers likely do.

Ineos is not likely manufacturing a ton of Grenadiers and they are not just manufacturing them as "Euro" vehicles specifically for the EU. Ineos plans to sell the Grenadier globally. When we consider how small JLR total global market share is compared with ***, GM, Toyota, Ford, Stellantis (formerly FCA), the Grenadier models don't equate to a rounding-error for the big guys and even considering the JLR lawsuit against Ineos probably will have little-to-no effect on LR sales. I do not think it was unreasonable to expect this "Defender" (Grenadier) every purist really wanted to "Made in UK" as originally promised.

JLR sold around 9,100 Defenders in 2020 in the US, how many Grenadiers will Ineos sell their first year in the US; maybe 1,000? (kinda makes me wanna buy one!) Since the point of the thing was to be a true off road utility vehicle I also think they could have procured powertrains (even crate motors for their low production numbers) from GM, Iveco, Cummins, even Toyota. Not saying the B58 is a bad engine, though direct injection + forced induction = carbon build-up; anyone who has owned a direct injected vehicle (without additional port injection) would likely agree. Why not use a more robust port injected V8 such as the L96 6.0 iron block V8 with 6L80 or 3UR-FE 5.7 V8 as petrol options, maybe Iveco, Cummins or VM Motori as diesel options? BMW might have been the best deal available, though Ineos really strayed from their stated purpose. The Grenadier's heart (powertrain) will be very similar to the L663 Defender's heart.

There is a serious reliability issue and a serious parts availability issue. Ineos seems to have mostly solved the parts availability issue utilizing BMW global dealerships (maybe not so much in austere areas), but using the B58 certainly does not shout "reliable" in regards to the engine.

I am excited to see how the Grenadier sells globally, especially in the US, apparently a large focus of marketing/sales. I am even more interested to see how well the Grenadier really performs against everything else: L663 Defender 110, 200-Series Land Cruiser, JL Unlimited Rubicon, 70-Series Land Cruiser, G-Wagon, etc. I still think it's a really cool vehicle albeit heavily compromised. Ineos did not compromise on steering/suspension or exterior design, they did make major compromises choosing a performance powertrain for an allegedly purpose-built utility vehicle; doing so does not differentiate the Grenadier from the L663 Powertrain (direct injected turbo I4 or I6 MHEV with ZF transmissions).

Article from https://www.ineos.com/inch-magazine...romising-off-roader-that-works-for-the-world/

"It’s Britain!

As INEOS gears up to build its no frills Grenadier in the UK, engineers put it through its paces

---

INEOS’ new, no frills 4x4 will be built in Britain – and it will be named after the London pub where the idea was born. The long-awaited announcement followed months of soul searching for the best possible location.

“We looked long and hard at possible manufacturing locations across the world,” said INEOS Chairman and Founder Sir Jim Ratcliffe. But Bridgend in South Wales beat the lot.

“The decision to build in the UK is a significant expression of confidence in British manufacturing, which has always been at the heart of what INEOS stands for,” said Jim.

As INCH went to press, work was well underway to build its manufacturing and assembly plant in the small Welsh market town.

Economy and Transport Minister Ken Skates said the Welsh Government had worked closely with INEOS to make it happen.

“This is great news for Wales,” he said. “And Bridgend has a long history of skilled manufacturing expertise.”

The new manufacturing plant is being built on a 14-acre plot of land close to Ford Bridgend’s 40-year-old plant, which is due to close in 2020, with the loss of 1,700 jobs.

Production of The Grenadier – named after a poll of INEOS Automotive’s online followers – is due to start in 2021, and is expected to create up to 500 jobs.

Key parts for the 4x4, including the body and chassis, will be built at a second, sub-assembly factory in Estarreja, Portugal, before being brought to Bridgend for assembly.

BMW will supply the engines, and another German company, MBTech, a former subsidiary of Mercedes Benz, has been awarded the engineering contract.

The Grenadier has been described as the spiritual successor to the Land Rover Defender, which ceased production in January 2016.

“That left a serious hole in the marketplace and we are going to plug that gap,” said Jim.

The Grenadier will be rugged, capable, durable and functional – and easy to repair in a field.

“It will be a working tool to get the job done,” said Dirk Heilmann, CEO INEOS Automotive. “No frills. No fuss.

---

Pushing to the extreme​

The Grenadier is being designed to withstand the toughest conditions in the world. For the past 12 months, the development team has been running a chassis and suspension “mule” to test the durability of these critical components. And so far it is faring well.

And the team have been trying their hardest to find The Grenadier’s weak spots – for months. “Believe me, we’re looking for them,” said Alex. In fact, they have been pushing The Grenadier, INEOS’ no frills 4 x 4, to the extreme.

It has already covered several thousand kilometres on and off-road.

Most of the tests have been carried out at Austria’s Graz Magna proving grounds – a favoured place to test military trucks and tanks.

“It was the ideal environment for us because we were able to push the vehicle beyond expectations,” he said.

The prototype has also been put through its paces at Germany’s Boxberg testing ground, which is used by all major European car manufacturers.

But its most recent test took it to the 4,593ft summit of Austria’s Schoeckl Mountain, which is seen as the place where 4x4s can let themselves go as they tackle the punishing climb over sharp limestone rocks to the top.

“Historically it has been used by Daimler for the G-class,” said Alex. “But The Grenadier handled it extremely well.”

Discover more at: www.ineosgrenadier.com"

 

[Stuart Barnes]

Pretty much agree with you there Doc.

The engine choice is a tricky beast. They have to balance future legislation against cost efficient installation and fuel consumption. If you get away from North America and the Gulf states then people simply won’t put up with the terrible fuel consumption that large displacement gasoline engines inherently have.

That leaves us with direct injection forced induction “performance“ engines unfortunately, if you want to offer a petrol/gas version.

With regards to diesel I would really have liked them to have gone with a more industrial unit, small Cat or Cummins units. Both offer very good worldwide coverage for spare parts supply and maintenance. But I’m sure the costs would have spiraled quite a bit when offering 2 totally different engine and transmission options. The installation implications alone for the much heavier industrial diesels would probably mean 2 totally different chassis designs, at least for the fwd 1/3, adding extra cost.

With the bmw power plants you get a “simple” installation of 2 very similar units already mated to and optimized for the transmission. As to their reliability or perceived reliability I’ll have to do a little digging. But a good thing is that they, I’m assuming de-tuned or at least re-tuned them for torque instead of outright power figures of both engines for the Grenadier application.

As you put it before this company is basically a rounding error for the majors.

Flame me if you want but I think they probably had their back to the wall a little with the decision on whose engine/transmission package to use. Existing agreements of “you can’t do x with anyone else if we buy your engine agreements” not withstanding.

However. I do actually enjoy driving my gas guzzling scv6 performance engine in my lr4 over the diesel ones in the uk.

 

[Mozambique]

Ahhhhhh.......... having watched all three grand tour cycling races this year I now know what type of company sponsors the Ineos Grenadier cycling team!
Have I been living under an auotomotive stone?
What gives - did they buy the rights to the old Defender design and are now building it themselves?

Cannot see many selling in North America. Dodge, GM etc. trucks are SO entrenched in the US heartland. Might sell a few to urban elites in New York, but Euroscepticism huge if the intended market is for actual off-road use. have only seen the upmarket spec new defenders in Canada so far. Not sure how low-market the basic version is re. appealing to the traditional farmer base. If still $$$, then maybe the Grenadier has a chance to appeal, although have no idea on pricing

 

[ryanjl]

They tried to buy the rights and Land Rover wouldn't sell it to them. So they came up with this design and Land Rover sued them and lost.

 

[Davidinseattle]

Ahhhhhh.......... having watched all three grand tour cycling races this year I now know what type of company sponsors the Ineos Grenadier cycling team!
Have I been living under an auotomotive stone?
What gives - did they buy the rights to the old Defender design and are now building it themselves?

Cannot see many selling in North America. Dodge, GM etc. trucks are SO entrenched in the US heartland. Might sell a few to urban elites in New York, but Euroscepticism huge if the intended market is for actual off-road use. have only seen the upmarket spec new defenders in Canada so far. Not sure how low-market the basic version is re. appealing to the traditional farmer base. If still $$$, then maybe the Grenadier has a chance to appeal, although have no idea on pricing

Looks like others beg to differ. https://carbuzz.com/news/military-spec-mercedes-g-wagen-arrives-to-fight-ineos-grenadier

As with all things, time will tell. As for the "urban ellites...", I wouldn't exactly say there are a few. Those of us with means don't want a G-wagon, or a Range Rover, or a Lexus. We want something different, something you don't see in every costco parking lot. For that reason alone, I think they'll do well in the US. Not the first year, or second year, but 3rd year they will be above 25000 units. If you think they are priced too high, the Expedition I am getting my wife when the 2023s arrive will likely be more money. $100k is nothing to people anymore. It's crazy, I know, but it's true.

 

[doc5339]

Could not agree more with "We want something different." and pretty much all SUVs in the U.S. are uber expensive; used this very argument to justify purchasing a 2020 Defender 110 S. I should add that I was way harder on JLR for the L663 than I have been on Ineos for the Grenadier. I wanted capability, though really I compromised capability (coming from a JKU Rubicon Recon on 33" wheels) for comfort where I spend most of the time (on paved roads) trying to get off road where I will get beat-up. Hard to call it a beating in an L663, but in the Rubi it could get painful.

 

[ryanjl]

Once the "they are actively being sold in the USA" threshold is met, my main concern with the Ineos will be the longevity of the brand. I know Ineos has the money to keep it going as long as it wants, but Ineos is a company that makes financial decisions and who's to say they don't pull it from the market in 5 years.

Its #1 buyer is going to be people who are fans of Land Rover and don't like the new Defender. But I'm not sure how many people like that there are who are also people with the means and the desire to buy. I don't think there's any question the Ineos will sell well it's first few years here, but what happens when all those people have theirs and that market is tapped?

 

[Forester]

I'm in, was hoping to replace my LR3 with a new Land Rover, but they have nothing I want. This looks perfect for me.