LR4 5.0 Chain Guides actual problem?

[ryanjl]

On the Land Rover Owners North America facebook group, someone asked a question of whether the guides and timing chain are still issues on the '14 to '16 models. I said they were not, but a few guys have jumped in to correct me and say that they are still doing timing chain jobs all the time on these models. One guy said that Rover is getting ready to release a third version of the timing chain guides and tensioners.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/953...tif_id=1559754757380677&notif_t=group_comment

This can't be real, can it? Are the updated tensioners wearing through the steel buttons in the updated guides? No one on here with a '13 or later has had a timing chain issue, have they?

 

[BeemerNut]

Couple of thoughts

- The video says that the JLR engine is a Ford engine.

- From several articles the JLR 5.0 AJ-V8 Gen III engine is not a Ford 5.0 Coyote

- IF the engines are the same we should be hearing about the of problem with Ford vehicles. I have not.

Chatting with a British lad I ran across on our Norton motorcycle restoration forum he mentioned working at the Ford manufacturing plant in "Jolly Old England."
All they do is manufacture parts to LR's engineer's specs no matter the design flaws or inferior quality of materials used and having no say but too only manufacturing the parts.

Backing up to the Ford's 5.0 Coyote engine mentioned above with their same design as LR's, both having over head cams with chain guides the Coyote engines are having zero chain guide problems or failures. Talking Coyote engines run over 100K miles being run hard past 8,000 rpm's on any given day. What's that telling anyone able to even think at all?

On another topic, "modern day oils" that's a very true statement after the EPA ****'s mandated zinc and phosphorus to be removed from oil as it "might or may shorten the life of the catalytic converter" hence its removal. Same with unleaded gas in older engines designed to run on leaded gas called valve recession damage accelerated.
Considering 99.9% of modern day engines run roller rockers or slippers against the cam verse the known highly stressed high pressure contact areas as used with flat tappet cam designed engines requiring that added protection zinc and phosphorus offered.
This also applied to highly stressed push rod race engines with flat tappet cams which will destroy themselves within seconds long before the cam break in process is completed.

Even the older LR engines of 2004 on back to 1987 Discoveries already having a known problem of cams wearing out with the matching lifters just as bad by only 60K miles.
All the above years required to run a cat converter starting in 1974 app in the U.S.A. hence the reduction of zinc and phosphorus until there was none as well the cam and lifter protection. Sure the engine can run on modern day oils with you not knowing your accelerating the death of the cam and lifters.

If running any older flat tappet cam and lifter engine (87 to 04 LR) and these zinc and phosphorus additives shortened the life of your cat converter you have more problems like a tired worn out high mileage oil burner.
Haven't seen a shortened and failed cat yet on any LR engines (older push rod w/ flat tappets) that are still running at over 200K miles recording the same exhaust specs at smog stations compared to a newly installed cat which has been "seasoned" a 100 miles before the smog test. I'm running 20+ years on aftermarket cats (Magnaflow's) and run a high concentration of zinc and phosphorus additives to our modern day oils without a bit of a problem with the so called shortened cat life damage. Cam lobes, lifter surfaces looking almost like new, double row true timing chain still without slack at 143K miles.
Had to spout off......~~=o&o>.....

 

[cperez]

No one on here with a '13 or later has had a timing chain issue, have they?

Not yet but thanks for jinxing us! I suddenly have the urge to shorten my oil change interval to 2K miles...

 

[BeemerNut]

Not yet but thanks for jinxing us! I suddenly have the urge to shorten my oil change interval to 2K miles...

It depends a lot on how your driving your vehicles not just your LR but any vehicle.
Stop and go in town soccer mom short trips 4-10 start and stops a day vs 4,500 mile 90% highway driving, it makes a big difference in how soon your oil gets dirty loaded up with carbon, acids plus normal metals being worn away.
Depending on the engine design plus how the timing chains are lubricated, oil by splash, oil by rotating parts slinging off oil or by pressurized spray nozzles. That's the big question plus the added details in performing modifications allowing a little extra oil to reach certain parts like keeping the timing chain plus the distributor gear better lubed. Yes a distributor in the 95 D1.
Chain guides are good especially those which have a shallow arc against the chain, it's those high arc with lots of degrees of chain directional changes is a recipe for disaster, go figure. Increased pressure of a chain applied against a high arced guide, what's going to wear out faster vs a shallow arced guide? Visual alone I have my opinion not wanting any engine designed that way. Better off to have idler sprockets combined with shallow arced guides lasting a lot longer mileage wise but an added expense the bean counters hate. Jag and LR would of been way better off as well less costly to manufacture by running a trouble free dry toothed belt system, easy to replace "if properly designed" and once they're at the 60K mile suggested replacement. Cutting corners, isn't that why Tata of India owns Jag and LR?.....~~=o&o>......

 

[cperez]

It depends a lot on how your driving your vehicles not just your LR but any vehicle.
Stop and go in town soccer mom short trips 4-10 start and stops a day vs 4,500 mile 90% highway driving, it makes a big difference in how soon your oil gets dirty loaded up with carbon, acids plus normal metals being worn away.
Depending on the engine design plus how the timing chains are lubricated, oil by splash, oil by rotating parts slinging off oil or by pressurized spray nozzles. That's the big question plus the added details in performing modifications allowing a little extra oil to reach certain parts like keeping the timing chain plus the distributor gear better lubed. Yes a distributor in the 95 D1.
Chain guides are good especially those which have a shallow arc against the chain, it's those high arc with lots of degrees of chain directional changes is a recipe for disaster, go figure. Increased pressure of a chain applied against a high arced guide, what's going to wear out faster vs a shallow arced guide? Visual alone I have my opinion not wanting any engine designed that way. Better off to have idler sprockets combined with shallow arced guides lasting a lot longer mileage wise but an added expense the bean counters hate. Jag and LR would of been way better off as well less costly to manufacture by running a trouble free dry toothed belt system, easy to replace "if properly designed" and once they're at the 60K mile suggested replacement. Cutting corners, isn't that why Tata of India owns Jag and LR?.....~~=o&o>......

OK @BeemerNut, I will change my oil every 1K miles but that's my final offer!!

 

[BeemerNut]

cperez, your living in a far wider temperature swing zone than I here in Kalifornia which is rather mild. Summer lows in the high 40's, days from 68*F to 89*F.
Winter lows in the high 30's with a few lows touching freezing, days from 50's to 60's.
Very little desired oil viscosity changes between summer and winter.
Much easier on cold started engines in my area vs yours in Maryland.
New neighbors from the Chicago area had two vehicles that only lasted three years there before showing signs of burning oil. Was told they are gasping their last breaths their vehicles.
Both pencil pushers with zero mechanical abilities revving their engines instantly after startup then taking off to the races almost floored daily how they treated their engines.
Here i'm with the old scratch built 454 engine at 379K miles that runs like it only has 500 miles after being build back in 86. It took over 8K miles for the plasma coated moly rings to fully seat with plans on it making 400K plus miles a easy to accomplish goal
Hand papered then burnished bores with maple blocks a trick we used on 2800 Pratt & Whitney engines while rebuilding them in my past life.
Pre-oiler then baby all cold engines. If I wanted to do a burnout I will but not often plus it's not a around town vehicle never exceeding 1,200 rpm's engine besides it's all done by 5,800 rpm's anyway. Max designed limit of safe constant rpm's set at 6,700 rpm's.
It holds 13 1/2 quarts oil in the pan. No it's not a "Bowtie" engine, *** Wee Herman wears bowties and jerks off in theaters......~~=o&o>.....

 

[cperez]

Much easier on cold started engines in my area vs yours in Maryland.

All good points and I am mindful of how I treat my engine. One advantage I have is that my LR4 is garage-kept. The garage doesn't get HVAC but rarely gets down to freezing temps even in winter. I avoid running and gunning after cold starts in wintertime. My driving pattern is a week or two of 10-25 miles/day interspersed with a road trip of 500-1200 miles. Stick to regular maintenance schedule (closing on 57K miles now) and oil changes every 5K. I haven't used any additives like BK44 lately or had an induction service done. I've heard just a touch of fan noise lately as the weather warms up but that could be my imagination. It is very intermittent if it is happening at all. Hoping to let this thing age gracefully.

 

[BeemerNut]

Cold starts with cold thick oil then any revving at all can cause these modern day tiny oil filters to go into bypass which is the emergency oiling system vs starving any bearings and destroying an engine.
On the smarter thinking side vs manufactures using the smallest and cheapest oil filters they can find, why not cross reference the OEM filter's thread type (Imperial or Metric) plus thread pitch, diameter as well the square oil ring sealing's diameter in OD and ID. Installing any filter larger in diameter if you have the room especially a longer oil filter will allow for more square inches of filtering media. Added security allowing cold thick oil to pass through filtered before the oil filter goes into bypass passing unfiltered oil to the bearings. Win win your engine will be much happier and live longer. My case D1 running a Hastings LF 426 oil filter 7" long that holds over a quart of oil alone. The filter is threaded onto a modified sandwich adapter. .....~~=o&o>......

 

[ktm525]

If any LR4 should have tensioner problems it should be mine. Early build 2010 and subjected to freezing weather half the year with temps as low as the -30s. However at 110k miles my chain is quiet and tight. The only thing I can point to is short OCIs. I am swapping the oil (lately Pennzoil Platinum Ultra 5W-20) every 5 k miles and the filter yearly at aprox. 10k miles. It has worked so far for me., knock on wood.

 

[BeemerNut]

ktm525, whatever your doing do not change a thing with your maintenance.
Only thing I would change is your 10K mile filter change schedule with being replaced by the 5K mile interval.
You or others way up north running block or oil pan heaters?.....~o&o>......