LR4s out there holding their value maybe more than just quite well

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ryanjl

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I haven't sat in the new Defender. What's the driving position like in it?

The only other vehicles I can think of that are similar to the LR4 are the G-Wagon (which has an even "commandier" driving position--seriously, you feel like you're driving an aircraft control tower when you drive one) and the Wrangler (not as commandy as an LR4, but still far more than average).

All other cars feel like I'm sitting in a bathtub.
 

manoftaste

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I haven't sat in the new Defender. What's the driving position like in it?

The only other vehicles I can think of that are similar to the LR4 are the G-Wagon (which has an even "commandier" driving position--seriously, you feel like you're driving an aircraft control tower when you drive one) and the Wrangler (not as commandy as an LR4, but still far more than average).

All other cars feel like I'm sitting in a bathtub.

Ok so once you raise the seat all the way up to its maximum height or as much you as you can without getting your head hitting the headliner, you are able to get some sense of that command driving position (CDP) if you are looking straight ahead and are able to see quite a bit of the hood/bonnet, but you still feel a bit restricted because of loosing all that headroom above your head.

Also the higher belt line unfortunately makes you feel like you are sitting inside a jacked up sedan as it restricts quite a bit of your view out your side window as the driver, including the view out thru all other windows.

To achieve the CDP, I have tried configuring things up while sitting behind the wheel in the new Defender a bunch of times in order for me to be able to sell myself that CDP is doable in there, but it just does not work for me unfortunately. Maybe it will work for you and others.

Also, as for the stadium seating, not sure what the hell LR were thinking there, after opening one of the rear doors, you witness a sedan like setup as far as the second row of seats go. They are angled way more for comfort just like a sedan and the higher belt line simply seals the deal. Again, it may work for some, does not work for me.

My seventy year old, total homemaker mother who has absolutely zero clue about these things, tells me that she doesnt know what it is but she finds it so much fun sitting in the second row of my LR3/4.

I could be wrong as I dont have kids yet but I feel like the stadium seating may keep the kids (depending on their age) more entertained, occupied, and relaxed due to the less constricted feeling of being inside a car cabin for longer periods of time, specially on the long drives where a clear and nice view out the windows all around may become additional source/option for their wandering attentions once they get board with their primary sources of entertainment (tablets, phones, video games, texting, etc). Sorry maybe not the texting, ha, that could easily go on for hours.
 
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Troy A

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My 16 year old D3 (assembled July 2004) is showing its age and the Mrs and I started evaluating “replacement” options 3 months ago. We test drove a D5, X7, Q7, Merc, etc. since we know the D3 well we didn’t test drive a D4. After much dialogue we decided the best all around package was the D4. We picked up a 2016 Landmark with 49K last week after a month of searching. I would never have thought I’d prefer a vehicle with near 50k miles over a more modern or brand new SUV but we do. We wanted to like the D5 but the 2nd row seats are an afterthought and the rear styling? We couldn’t do it. Nothing like the “command driving position” of the D3/D4 - the D5 felt more like my RRS. One thing to note - D4 prices seem to be creeping up. During my research for a D4 I saw 3 weekly price increases on vehicles I was considering.
[mention]jjvd21 [/mention] did you evaluate the new Defender along with all these others? Or was it just not available near you or were you just not interested? You did look at a lot of options.


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manoftaste

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I just always come back to their units shipped. From 2011 to 2018 - 7 straight years of global units shipped growth by leaving history behind and making prettier vehicles with bigger wheels. 2020 is low for obvious reasons. Not sure what happened in 2019. But the company regardless of owner is getting market signals that McGovern is leading them down the right track with his decisions so we'll see more luxury, (even bigger???) wheels, and more water under the bridge from the "good old days" of Camel Trophy Discos and more of McGovern's "screw the traditionalists - they don't pay the bills but I've given a design nod with the safari windows and the check plate that you actually can't stand on because it's plastic" because it's working. I'm conflicted. I love my LR4, am not a fan of the D5 or any of the RR series but do quite like the Defender (feels like the real D5 or maybe D6.) I think they've served both masters admirably well for a small manufacturer. Pay respect to the past without being hamstrung by the past and also get as many new customers as possible to keep paying the bills. My earlier point was that if we think that LR "should" do this or that (like build a Grenadier) that ship has sailed. They're on a new path and people can either join it or leave it. I am keeping my LR4 as long as possible and am considering the Defender once they work out the bugs. But I have no love for the company - like Andrew St. Pierre White, I think brand loyalty is dumb. Doesn't stop me from really loving having my 2013 5.0 V8 LR4 which I think is bloody fantastic.

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Sure. But here is how I personally look at things. For me its not about the sales for LR, rather I am purely interested in what it is that they are creating for me as a customer in the form of their products.

Its more about what is it that I am getting for my $80k+. For that amount, am I really getting a product thats worth that price tag?

When I was looking at the full size RR as a replacement for my LR4 after the D5 vision/concept reveal, I gave the full size RR a hard look and tried to convince myself that it may work for me. But to me the RR was not an "SUV", as its been advertised, worth a hundred grand in any way. But it may have been worth a hundred grand plus for me if I was in the market looking for a great, luxurious AWD sedan with higher center of gravity (sort of like prestige/luxury version of a Subaru type of sedan) and if the RR was advertised/marketed as such.

After looking at the RR, I paid the visit to the lexus dealership for a close look at their LX570 as well. Did not fit the bill for me, but compared to the RR, it was certainly worth more percentage of its asking MSRP due to its well known reliability, durability, and longevity factors.

But to others, a $100k+ RR would be the perfect fit for their needs with just the idea alone that "Even though I will never take it offroad but its nice to know that the capability is there because the LR TV ad says so" and it may make them feel accomplished and better about themselves, etc. And if that works for them, thats perfectly fine.

Except that these target LR customers, due to their short usage/ownership cycle rate per unit purchase/lease, may not be fully aware of the real world fact that with LR products, there is another reality that follows the idea of "its nice to know that the capability is there". And that reality is that "Its also nice to know that the very much needed reliability, durability, longevity, and functionality, dictated by this available and heavily advertised capability, are not really there," So taking these things offroad, specially with the two available inches of sidewall and the likely hood of parts failing, you may very well end up needing a tow truck to make it back from that advertised "Beyond" place of interest.

Therefore the sales charts could mean anything and many things. They could also mean that the the LR customers in general are quite passive and dont really have the time to communicate, and that they are quite happy and are comfortable with spending their cash on things that partly fulfill their needs/requirements, knowing or without knowing.

And its a perfect world for the current LR execs and thats the world they'd like to live in, because it serves them perfectly well for their bottom lines.

In other words, its better for LR that their target customers remain unaware of the fact that in reality, in addition to purchasing their vehicle, they will require the needed reliability and durability, snow rubber, more sidewall, etc if they really want to take their LR SUVs/CUVs to the LR advertised environments/terrains/weather without cutting a sidewall or being stranded.

Also, because of the lack of durability (directly resulting in lack of reliability) the parts will wear out very quickly and prematurely if you attempt to go to those Above & Beyond places.

And if you pay attention to those legal disclaimers (that fine print at the bottom of the TV screen that LR knows nobody really reads) on LR ads, you will know that whats being shown to you is not really the reality. Those legal disclaimers are there for good reasons.

But its also this very heritage/legacy idea of being able to go to these places that LR heavily relies and leans on to differentiate its products from other manufacturers. Hence the need to keep hanging on to the green oval 4x4 heritage even though their products do not reflect this heritage any more in any real world sense.

And they also know that their average customer will not keep their products for more than a certain and a very short duration of time. So the quality of the parts/fit/finish and the build quality just needs to be barely enough for their vehicles to be able to pass those couple of abuse runs by the press with cameras for PR and to be able to sustain mild urban use/shopping mall runs for those three to four years of ownership. Hence the worn out bushings (and the lack of any innovation in bushings to maintain the James Bond personality) only after a few offroad runs, and this ever looming fear of failing parts.

Just to give you an example of falling quality levels at LR over the years, the black trim pieces that sit at the bottom edge of the rear doors (on my pampered, always parked under shade, mostly average 70F, MY16 LR4) started to buckle/warp only after three years of ownership. So outta curiosity I would look for the same buckling on other LR4s in the area to check if thats the case on them as well. And sure nuff, most of them are showing the same buckling/warping most recent MY LR4s I saw. This kinda quality fail never occurred on my 06 LR3 which I kept for six years and put on near 50k miles in east coast' and then west coast' varying harsh weather conditions/temperatures and was my daily (NYC/LA, city streets) for the entire duration of ownership.

I made it a point to look for that buckling/warpage on any LR3 I'd spot around town. And so far have not come across any LR3 showing the signs buckling on those trim pieces even after those being on the street and in service for about fourteen years now.

Had the dealership install the new part, but same crap. It could be anything, reduced quality level on the newer batches of parts, install sub-parts/item, etc., or reduced number of rivets/buttons to hold the trim in place, or downright removal of any structural piece(s) in the part itself to reduce the cost or weight or both. Who knows? Bottom line is that the quality is not there anymore, thats why this simple part has failed on a barely used, practically new, only four years old, a $65k LR product. And thats what matters to me, not how many units McGovern has been able to push thru the dealerships.

And there are other examples like that, and thats the kinda **** that you can just gauge from as far as parts/vendor/material QC levels at LR. I mean I paid $65k for this luxury/prestige brand product, should a simple black trim plastic piece that was originally designed fourteen years ago, which still looks great on fourteen year old LR3s, fail on later versions only after three years of service? Or should it mature, get better, and be perfected simply because its been manufactured over and over by now.

And I have seen such examples of cutting corners on the new Defender as well unfortunately. And I am being asked around $80k for that thing :)?

That is exactly why the sales charts are not indicative of anything for me at least, specially of the level of quality and real world functionality of LR products. The product(s) itself is what which speaks and is what I am interested in as a customer, regardless of what their sales are, good or bad.

Just because its selling well, does not mean its a quality product worth the asking price tag.

For me its what am I really paying this LR premium for? Am I paying this premium for just this legacy and now impractical idea of being able to go "Above & Beyond" or am I really only paying for the that heritage bearing green oval?

And last I heard LR was in quite a bit of trouble and were very much depending on the new Defender. I experienced this worry first hand at the LR private event after chatting with MrGovern and NA CEO (cant remember his name). During our conversation I noticed this deep sense of humility and genuine concern, among other odd things, that they are heavily relying on the sales of the new Defender to bring the brand back up on its feet.
 
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Troy A

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Sure. But here is how I personally look at things. For me its not about the sales for LR, rather I am purely interested in what it is that they are creating for me as a customer in the form of their products.

Its more about what is it that I am getting for my $80k+. For that amount, am I really getting a product thats worth that price tag?

When I was looking at the full size RR as a replacement for my LR4 after the D5 vision/concept reveal, I gave the full size RR a hard look and tried to convince myself that it may work for me. But to me the RR was not an "SUV", as its been advertised, worth a hundred grand in any way. But it may have been worth a hundred grand plus for me if I was in the market looking for a great, luxurious AWD sedan with higher center of gravity (sort of like prestige/luxury version of a Subaru type of sedan) and if the RR was advertised/marketed as such.

After looking at the RR, I paid the visit to the lexus dealership for a close look at their LX570 as well. Did not fit the bill for me, but compared to the RR, it was certainly worth more percentage of its asking MSRP due to its well known reliability, durability, and longevity factors.

But to others, a $100k+ RR would be the perfect fit for their needs with just the idea alone that "Even though I will never take it offroad but its nice to know that the capability is there because the LR TV ad says so" and it may make them feel accomplished and better about themselves, etc. And if that works for them, thats perfectly fine.

Except that these target LR customers, due to their short usage/ownership cycle rate per unit purchase/lease, may not be fully aware of the real world fact that with LR products, there is another reality that follows the idea of "its nice to know that the capability is there". And that reality is that "Its also nice to know that the very much needed reliability, durability, longevity, and functionality, dictated by this available and heavily advertised capability, are not really there," So taking these things offroad, specially with the two available inches of sidewall and the likely hood of parts failing, you may very well end up needing a tow truck to make it back from that advertised "Beyond" place of interest.

Therefore the sales charts could mean anything and many things. They could also mean that the the LR customers in general are quite passive and dont really have the time to communicate, and that they are quite happy and are comfortable with spending their cash on things that partly fulfill their needs/requirements, knowing or without knowing.

And its a perfect world for the current LR execs and thats the world they'd like to live in, because it serves them perfectly well for their bottom lines.

In other words, its better for LR that their target customer remains unaware of the fact that in reality, in addition to purchasing their vehicle, what other basic things are required (reliability and durability, snow rubber, more sidewall, etc,) if you really want to take your SUV to the LR advertised environments/terrains/weather, without cutting a sidewall or being stranded. And if you pay attention to those legal disclaimers (that fine print at the bottom of the TV screen that LR knows nobody really reads) on LR ads, you will know that whats being shown to you is not really the reality. Those legal disclaimers are there for good reasons.

But its also this very heritage/legacy idea of being able to go to these places that LR heavily relies and leans on to differentiate its products from other manufacturers. Hence the need to keep hanging on to the green oval 4x4 heritage even though their products do not reflect this heritage any more in any real world sense.

And they also know that their average customer will not keep their products for more than a certain and a very short duration of time. So the quality of the parts/fit/finish and the build quality just needs to be barely enough for their vehicles to be able to pass those couple of abuse runs by the press with cameras for PR and to be able to sustain mild urban use/shopping mall runs for those three to four years of ownership. Hence the worn out bushings (and the lack of any innovation in bushings to maintain the James Bond personality) only after a few offroad runs, and this ever looming fear of failing parts.

Just to give you an example of falling quality levels at LR over the years, the black trim pieces that sit at the bottom edge of the rear doors (on my pampered, always parked under shade, mostly average 70F, MY16 LR4) started to buckle/warp only after three years of ownership. So outta curiosity I would look for the same buckling on other LR4s in the area to check if thats the case on them as well. And sure nuff, most of them are showing the same buckling/warping most recent MY LR4s I saw. This kinda quality fail never occurred on my 06 LR3 which I kept for six years and put on near 50k miles in east coast' and then west coast' varying harsh weather conditions and was my daily for the entire duration of ownership.

I made it a point to look for that buckling on any LR3 I'd spot around town. And so far have not come any LR3 showing the buckling of those trim pieces even after those being on the street for about fourteen years now.

Had the service install the new part, same crap. It could be anything, reduced quality level on the newer batch of parts, install sub-parts/item, etc.

And there are other examples like that, and thats the kinda **** that you can just gauge from as far as parts/vendor/material QC levels at LR. I mean I paid $65k for this luxury/prestige brand product, should a simple black trim plastic piece that was originally designed fourteen years ago, which still looks great on fourteen year old LR3s, fail on later versions only after three years of service? Or should it mature, get better, and be perfected simply because its been manufactured over and over by now.

And I have seen such examples of cutting corners on the new Defender as well unfortunately. And I am being asked around $80k for that thing :)?

That is exactly why the sales charts are not indicative of anything for me at least, specially of the level of quality and real world functionality of LR products. The product(s) itself is what which speaks and is what I am interested in as a customer, regardless of what their sales are, good or bad.

Just because its selling well, does not mean its a quality product worth the asking price tag.

For me its what am I really paying this LR premium for? Am I paying this premium for just this legacy and now impractical idea of being able to go "Above & Beyond" or am I really only paying for the that heritage bearing green oval?

And last I heard LR was in quite a bit of trouble and were very much depending on the new Defender. I experienced this worry first hand at the LR private event after chatting with MrGovern and NA CEO (cant remember his name). During our conversation I noticed this deep sense of humility and genuine concern, among other odd things, that they are heavily relying on the sales of the new Defender to bring the brand back up on its feet.
I violently agree with all of the above. My point was that sales have been increasing and sales are the ultimate key performance indicator for any for-profit company. It's the signal that they're "on the right track." As McGovern himself is find of saying "traditionalists are not our customers."

I never said that because it's selling well, it's quality. Lots of crap sells well and is low quality. LR these days is about "marketing the brand experience" and most NEW customers will never ever ever take their precious "luxe-brand" vehicle off-road but they love the idea that it makes them "off-roady" and "ready for anything". Watch the Tata Harrier brand commercials all gushing about "The Heritage of Land Rover" on their newer and much much cheaper platform. Everything these days is marketing.

The team at Ineos will likely struggle just to meet their 25,000 units/yr target (vs. JLR's 700,000?) because they're aiming to build a strong, sturdy, traditional 4WD for severe environments and long-duty-cycle use. As they've stated, "nobody else is doing that anymore." As you likely know, they even tried to buy the Defender name off of JLR but they wouldn't go for it.

We live in an era where real engineering is too expensive and real use is not expected - it's good enough as long as it plays the part and as you said, lasts through the PR trips.

I think we're deeply in agreement here. Having said all of that, I'm still keen to drive a Defender and see if they work out the kinks in 5-10 years. But for now I'll keep my LR4 in tip-top shape! Even more so now!


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manoftaste

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I dont consider myself a traditionalist. I consider myself a modernist. I am not looking for tradition here.

I loved the design of the orig Discovery (series I and II), but I loved the redesign (LR3) way more even though it was missing the alpines of the D2, not because it looked little bit like the D2 but because it looked modern and still looks modern to this day. I appreciated the LR3 not because of its traditional roots or heritage but purely because of its modern day functionality.

And for the light source, the third row moonroof in LR3 way more than made up for the missing alpines while the rear quarter panel exterior area (*********, flushed glass window running vertically into the roof) looking far more **** than the D2. Perfect design evolution, and a great example of not being harnessed by the past.

I like the design of the new Defender not because of its nods to the past (alpine windows and tapered roof front, non-functional checkered plates on the hood, etc.), I like it because of its modern, graceful, and minimalist styling.

As for the alpines on the new Defender, I really dont think they bring anything to the table as far as modern visual aesthetics. And inside the cabin, not sure if they bring more airy, roomy feel because the light source is way too deep into the headliner/roof. A better job/implementation could have been done here.

I am that customer who McGovern is trying to sell his product(s) to.

And all I want as a modern customer is to be able to actually do things with his products that McGovern is telling me that they are capable of via his advertising/marketing without the fear of failing parts and being stranded specially past the four year factory warranty time as longevity and reliability go hand and hand together with taking an LR product to where LR advertises that we can take it to. Its that simple.

So I certainly am not the one who is being harnessed by the traditional past, but I cannot say with certainty either that Mr. McGovern is not being harnessed by the blinging, formulaic tasteless styling of the present while compromising functionality. I see very little modernity and more of the short lived fads and trends in the current LR designs with the least thought given to real world/life functionality.

Plus if I am paying a premium in the form of $80k (which I still think is ridiculous and not a great value) for an LR product, I am definitely looking for something "Above & Beyond" in terms of reliability, durability, and longevity (all of which are available on a Toyota Corolla these days, actually always have), and if not Above & Beyond, then at least at the same level as those of LX/Land Cruiser SUVs.

Otherwise what is it that I am really paying this premium for? Cow hide? Wood trims?, leather stitching, LCD screens with cool animations, all of which you can easily get on a non-premium brand these days? Or is it just the green oval emblem I am paying the premium for.

CDP, stadium seating, reliability, durability and longevity are not traditional attributes at all. These are real world, modern, functional needs, and LR needs to be made aware of this or else as a paying customer we'll just keep getting less and less for what we are paying for.

And of course, as a money making business, they'd like to be able to avoid having to do that, but trust me, you have absolute power as the paying customer.

50 emails, most likely less, thats all it would take for LR to immediately address the customer concerns. They are very, very sensitive and attentive to their customers' needs, specially the new business bringing customers.

Not sure if I mentioned it here somewhere on this board, some time ago I called LR UK and ended up leaving a voicemail in a hurry and I dont even remember leaving my number cuz it was more like me ending up in the wrong dept or something via their phone system, so it was like half hearted quick message that I had left.

In a day or two, I get a call from LRNA here, asking me what was it that I needed and how could they help, and that we heard that you called LR UK, is there anything we could do to help and assist you with. Not sure how they had tracked me down but it was quite impressive that LR UK was so concerned about why a one customer of theirs had tried to contact them :)

I am sure i am not the only one responsible for this, but a couple of years ago during my hour long meeting with an LR specialist at the LA auto show, I had specifically requested him for an onboard tire inflation system making a case to him that we needed that for any kind of offroad/beach/sand driving situation to be able to deflate/inflate on demand and that already having the air compressor system for the suspension onboard lends itself to having such capability to begin with. And you have that now as an option on the new Defender.

Now, did LR really have to do that, add this tire inflation capability in the new Defender? Absolutely not. Quite sure this would not make much of a difference in their sales, and its also an option not a standard feature, at this point at least. But I am damn sure that it took some R&D dollar+time on their side to make that happen. Why? They had noticed that the customers demanded it and customer satisfaction is important to them, and they gave it to us. And that, as a paying customer, makes me happy that I am bringing my business to a brand that does care about their customers' needs. Its that simple.

Not sure but adding an onboard tires inflation system also may have forced them to up the quality/reliability levels on the air compressor a bit which should really already be at top levels by now after having used air suspension systems in their products for decades now.

I mean, its realy shameful for LR if even a single air suspension related unit/part fails today in the year 2020. LR air suspension systems should be rock solid and as good as coils by now. Decades is more than enough time for maturity, specially in products costing ten of thousands of dollars above the regular non-luxury/prestige brands.

Never underestimate your power as the paying customer, you are on the driving seat of their business, for real, because their for-profit business really only exists because of your business. And LR UK would not want to lose a single unit sale and they do listen.
 
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manoftaste

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...I'm still keen to drive a Defender and see if they work out the kinks in 5-10 years. But for now I'll keep my LR4 in tip-top shape! Even more so now!

Definitely should, you may totally fall in love with it. It does have a presence on the tarmac.
 

manoftaste

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We live in an era where real engineering is too expensive and real use is not expected - it's good enough as long as it plays the part and as you said, lasts through the PR trips.

Its really good enough only if you, a paying customer, are willing to accept it as being good enough.

Its never in the hands of the manufacturers. The level of a product' quality is directly related to the level of passivity in its intended target audience.
 
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manoftaste

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The team at Ineos will likely struggle just to meet their 25,000 units/yr target (vs. JLR's 700,000?) because they're aiming to build a strong, sturdy, traditional 4WD for severe environments and long-duty-cycle use. As they've stated, "nobody else is doing that anymore." As you likely know, they even tried to buy the Defender name off of JLR but they wouldn't go for it.

That thing is being born one hundred percent and straight out of passion, purpose, and function. Anything that has passion and purpose as its origin is destined to succeed, whether in the short term or the long term, period. And success is not measured by the number of units sold/per year. Apple traditionally has sold and still sells way less units than many of its competitors. The company is sitting on a *** of cash they dont know how to spend.

Tesla was born out of passion, not by the desire to make money. Even if it struggled, it shook up the industry quite badly (in a good way), waking up the sleeping for decades, fat automotive giants. Job done here even if he fails with Tesla, cuz the momentum has been generated already.

And this is from a man who was making trips to his local YMCA to take a shower just a few years ago. And now he is primarily responsible for pushing and convincing NASA to send the man back to space using his tech and for that ridiculously difficult to control, unbelievable Vertical takeoff, vertical landing (VTVL) rockets.

Grenadier, with its successive lineup of models, has a real serious potential for competing against and giving some real hard time to the LCs thriving on the other side of the globe. We'll see. Its all great times we currently live in.

Once established good rep as far as reliability (which will automatically bring durability and longevity), how difficult would it be for him to leverage the rep, infrastructure, and knowhow to expand the lineup to include both orig, first generation Grenadier like robust, as well as lightly diluted models for the NA market? Not that much difficult. Its certainly all up for speculation at this point but very much achievable.

We know he loves the old Defender, I just wish he had given more leeway to his designers as far as the visual styling, looks way too much like the Defender, but we'll have to see it in flesh.

Aware of his asking JLR for the name (he is too married to Defender :)), but did you also know that JLR actually lost the lawsuit against him as far as the Defender look?
 

Troy A

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That thing is being born one hundred percent and straight out of passion, purpose, and function. Anything that has passion and purpose as its origin is destined to succeed, whether in the short term or the long term, period. And success is not measured by the number of units sold/per year. Apple traditionally has sold and still sells way less units than many of its competitors. The company is sitting on a *** of cash they dont know how to spend.

Tesla was born out of passion, not by the desire to make money. Even if it struggled, it shook up the industry quite badly (in a good way), waking up the sleeping for decades, fat automotive giants. Job done here even if he fails with Tesla, cuz the momentum has been generated already.

And this is from a man who was making trips to his local YMCA to take a shower just a few years ago. And now he is primarily responsible for pushing and convincing NASA to send the man back to space using his tech and for that ridiculously difficult to control, unbelievable Vertical takeoff, vertical landing (VTVL) rockets.

Grenadier, with its successive lineup of models, has a real serious potential for competing against and giving some real hard time to the LCs thriving on the other side of the globe. We'll see. Its all great times we currently live in.

Once established good rep as far as reliability (which will automatically bring durability and longevity), how difficult would it be for him to leverage the rep, infrastructure, and knowhow to expand the lineup to include both orig, first generation Grenadier like robust, as well as lightly diluted models for the NA market? Not that much difficult. Its certainly all up for speculation at this point but very much achievable.

We know he loves the old Defender, I just wish he had given more leeway to his designers as far as the visual styling, looks way too much like the Defender, but we'll have to see it in flesh.

Aware of his asking JLR for the name (he is too married to Defender :)), but did you also know that JLR actually lost the lawsuit against him as far as the Defender look?
Yes I saw that lawsuit loss. Good.

Also to clarify Apple makes 1/3 of the global revenue and 2/3 of the global profits because they're masters at selling a lux brand WHILE increasing gross margin while everybody else races to the bottom and goes margin negative (Apple's span 40-60% gross, the competitors are in the <10% range). Not sure it translates here.

https://9to5mac.com/2019/12/19/apple-takes-home-a-third-of-smartphone-revenue-two-thirds-of-profits/

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