Long crank, no faults

[Jimmy Brooks]

Also only correlation I can find to the low pressure fuel pump is that right after I turn the car off it normally won’t start however if I turn accessory mode on for seven seconds then turn it off for 2 and repeat the cycle 6 more times and then crank the car, it will start first try. However if I do this when the car hasn’t been ran in hours it will do a long crank to start.

 

[Jimmy Brooks]

Hey there Jimmy! Just wanted to chime in as I have an identical long crank issue on my '11 RRS.
Went through the usual diagnostics from various shops (LPFP, HPFP, timing, plugs, etc).
Finally a shop discovered that while long crank was occurring, there was no spark.

Lived with the long crank for nearly 10,000 miles, then suddenly during a hot day while coasting down hill the engine started running rough and I had no acceleration. Pulled off, turned off the car and no codes and restarted just fine.

Month later and I discovered that this poor running is caused by the charging voltage dropping in the low 12s (sometimes even 11.9!) in hot weather. Then finally through lots of log keeping, I discovered that on days where the charging system behaves (13+v) there is no long crank. Battery resting voltage before a long crank is 12.1-12.3v (Not great but I figured not bad). When starting voltage is 12.6+ no long crank. All throughout this there were no charging system faults of warning lights. No codes whatsoever.

Now this could be a coincidence, however I would assume if the coils were going out, they may require a higher input voltage. I will keep experimenting, and I promise you I feel your frustration lol.

For record, work done to try and resolve this issue so far:

- New Alternator
- New Battery
- New Plugs
- Fuel Pressure Sensor (First shop was convinced it was a fuel issue)

Can't wait to hear any discoveries you make regarding this issue! I will continue updating as well in case our rovers are plagued by the same virus.

Cheers

Quick Edit: forgot to mention Crank sensor was also replaced, as well as both MAF.

Also to add, I remember having weird throttle activity while driving as well. It happened 3 times, it would feel like as it built rpms the power output would fluctuate, I originally thought it was my transmission since it was replaced but it went away after a drive cycle.

 

[Adrien]

Wow crazy coincidence. I actually first started to notice the long start after a night time off roaring trip I went on where my engine temp was around 210 and trans temp was around 205ish. My volts on the IID tool were reading 11.9 with my light bar high beams and fog lights on yet when I turned them all off it didn’t increase. In fact, it barely increased above 12.4 and I could see my battery’s estimated state of charge dropping via IID tool. Also noticed in the cold, 45°f and below cold start, my voltage would hang low until I got on it then it would rise a bit. All weird to me. Now I know that this reading isn’t directly from the alternator or the battery itself but it’s odd that we both have issues with starting the car and voltage going weird.

Just to ask what battery is your RRS running?

Random but could be a key to see if ours has the same issue, when your in the middle of a long crank and you stop cranking does it sound like the car almost starts running for a second. Almost makes me think that the coils start firing as soon as voltage is freed from the starter cranking.

I was about to post a form asking how to diagnose the low pressure fuel pump check valve to see if my gas was actually receding into the tank after the car runs. However this is making me think it’s more electrical related


Edit: so your saying the car isn’t getting spark? This would line up with the fact that it seems like fuel is being sprayed on my pistons which is causing that big clean spot

Hey Jimmy! For battery I was running an AGM, however I put in a brand new OEM spec battery just to rule out it being a reaction to the AGM. I will get the exact make/model shortly I honestly can't remember. And yeah mechanic said during long crank the plugs were not firing. He said it's possibly a computer issue since about a year ago I had an alternator fail in a state that charged everything at 18-20v. So possible this caused some lasting issues.

An update on the TSB, the weird low-voltage scenario returned once yesterday while it was hot out, seems like any outside temp above 24 degrees C (75f) runs the risk of the charging issue. Again, no faults of charging system warnings which makes me think the ECU is commanding the low voltage.

If you have the engine opened up still, I would try starting and if it long cranks, don't crank again to start it but instead pull a plug and see if the cylinder is wet. That should confirm we may have the same gremlin.

Edit: As for the engine wanting to start towards the end of cranking, YES! Not all the time, but certainly fairly often. That's a great point about the starting drawing power. Since you've tried charging the battery externally and then starting with no success, I guess this would point to a bad starter or poor grounding. There's a ground point in the right hand wheel well that some others have said corrodes badly, I will check on mine tomorrow and let you know my findings.

 

[Adrien]

Also only correlation I can find to the low pressure fuel pump is that right after I turn the car off it normally won’t start however if I turn accessory mode on for seven seconds then turn it off for 2 and repeat the cycle 6 more times and then crank the car, it will start first try. However if I do this when the car hasn’t been ran in hours it will do a long crank to start.

This is very interesting..

Almost makes me wonder if the low pressure pump is slowly failing, and at times draws way too much power causing the low voltage scenario. Alternator may be putting out healthy amps but the pump or something else is sucking it down. However on the other hand you'd think a fuse would go...

I will try your cycle 6 times for 7 seconds experiment and let you know! For me, I hear the pump prime when I open the driver door, I know on Lr3's and older sports I think it only primed when key it turned to accessory. Do our pumps complete a second priming routine when in accessory?

 

[Adrien]

One last past symptom to note (not saying it's related, but noteable) a month before the long crank issue I was driving with 35 miles of fuel remaining, then suddenly the fuel gauge jumped up to 90 miles, then about 5 minutes later the engine shut down. I used a jerry can to add 1.5 gallons and sure enough fired right up. If you haven't experienced anything like this then I am confident it's a coincidence and a one time fluke, but if you have then lets add it to the list lol..

 

[16FujiDisco]

Have either of you tried cranking while the battery was hooked to another power source like a tender or another battery? Just thinking if it was electrical, then supplying power to offset the load might rule some things out.

 

[Jimmy Brooks]

Have either of you tried cranking while the battery was hooked to another power source like a tender or another battery? Just thinking if it was electrical, then supplying power to offset the load might rule some things out.

I boosted it with a jumper pack but it doesn’t make a difference

 

[Jimmy Brooks]

Hey Jimmy! For battery I was running an AGM, however I put in a brand new OEM spec battery just to rule out it being a reaction to the AGM. I will get the exact make/model shortly I honestly can't remember. And yeah mechanic said during long crank the plugs were not firing. He said it's possibly a computer issue since about a year ago I had an alternator fail in a state that charged everything at 18-20v. So possible this caused some lasting issues.

An update on the TSB, the weird low-voltage scenario returned once yesterday while it was hot out, seems like any outside temp above 24 degrees C (75f) runs the risk of the charging issue. Again, no faults of charging system warnings which makes me think the ECU is commanding the low voltage.

If you have the engine opened up still, I would try starting and if it long cranks, don't crank again to start it but instead pull a plug and see if the cylinder is wet. That should confirm we may have the same gremlin.

Edit: As for the engine wanting to start towards the end of cranking, YES! Not all the time, but certainly fairly often. That's a great point about the starting drawing power. Since you've tried charging the battery externally and then starting with no success, I guess this would point to a bad starter or poor grounding. There's a ground point in the right hand wheel well that some others have said corrodes badly, I will check on mine tomorrow and let you know my findings.

So when I had another shop diagnose my car they claimed they put a junkyard ecu in the car and it still behaved the same so ecu would not be the issue.

 

[Jimmy Brooks]

Ok so just clarifying again if there was no spark when the plugs were pulled and the engine was cranked then what were looking at is not fuel related. However every long crank issues on land rovers in general that I have read about that show the same long crank no faults runs fine have been injectors and fuel pressure related. I think to be sure about all of this I’ll pull drivers side plug closest to the front of the car and check for fuel after cranking for a good 5 or 6 seconds.

 

[Adrien]

Ok so just clarifying again if there was no spark when the plugs were pulled and the engine was cranked then what were looking at is not fuel related. However every long crank issues on land rovers in general that I have read about that show the same long crank no faults runs fine have been injectors and fuel pressure related. I think to be sure about all of this I’ll pull drivers side plug closest to the front of the car and check for fuel after cranking for a good 5 or 6 seconds.

Right no spark! And good to know about your ECU, I remember you saying that previously but forgot. Definitely let me know your results on checking for fuel. I have also been told Injectors, Fuel pump, purge valve, etc etc. Leaking injectors combined with a weaker coil could also do it for sure! So not to say injectors aren't also leaking. However, I have noticed a lot of guys that recommended injectors also mentioned performance issues while the vehicle is running.

Leaking injector starting should also be remedied by starting the engine in "clear flood" mode by depressing the gas pedal all the way while cranking. Whereas when I attempt first start of the day it makes little to no difference. I'd also like to think that the chances of all 8 injectors failing would be low... but not impossible!

By that logic too, I doubt all my coils failed at the same time either, however I would totally understand if the 12v rail powering the coils was damaged or input voltage was low combined with the age of my coils.

Trying my best to take steps back too, with mechanics telling me all sorts of stuff and doing so much research sometimes I worry I'm fixated on the wrong possibilities...

Definitely feel free to PM me any quick questions or tests that you'd like me to confirm with my vehicle as well. The more shared data points we can create the faster we can hopefully nail it down to a component or even conditions that extend or decrease the crank time


Edit: For example my long crank issue disappearing for 2 days is extremely odd... If I recall correctly your LR4 fired up fine on random occasions as well but correct me if I'm mistaken, I've hopped across so many forums at this point all the posts are blending together