What did they do!!!

[Azoo]

Take it to another shop and get the fluid level checked. These trannies are very sensitive to fluid level.

• A) Transmissions fluid level checking.
  1) The transmission fluid temperature must be between 30°C and 35°C before checking can begin. Use test equipment to determine the trans temperature.
  2) The vehicle must be level with engine running at idle speed and air conditioning turned on.
  3) Step on the brakes firmly, apply parking brake fully and shift to D and R, briefly pausing in each position before shifting back to the Park position.
  4) With the engine running at idle speed and the selector in Park position, remove the filler plug. Monitor the transmission temperature, if a small stream of oil runs out at 40°C, the fluid level is correct.
  5) If no oil runs out when the filler plug is removed, the fluid level is too low and oil needs to be added until it overflows.
  6) With engine running, install the oil filler plug and tighten to proper torque.
  
• B) Adding fluid after repairs.
  1) With the engine stopped and the transmission in Park position, remove the oil filler plug. Add transmission fluid until a small stream of oil runs out.
  2) Insert the filler plug and tighten by hand. Start the engine.
  3) With the engine running, remove the oil filler plug and add transmission fluid until a small stream of oil runs out. Insert the filler plug and tighten by hand.
  4) Follow the “Transmission fluid level checking” procedure described in section A) above.
  
• C) Notes on fluid level and adding procedure.
  1) Use only ZF-LifeguardFluid6 or OE approved transmission fluid.
  2) If the transmission temperature rises above 50°C during the fluid level checking procedure the resulting oil level will be to low. Let the transmission cool down and repeat the fluid level procedure.
  3) Have transmission fluid and a suitable oil pump available before starting the fluid level procedure. The transmission fluid temperature will rise quickly during the checking procedure.
  

 

[Kelly Barrie]

Sorry to hear this story, I hope everything work's out in the end. My apologies, if I'm highjacking this thread, but I thought I'd share my latest tranny story for what it's worth. My transmission can make a few soft clunk shifts up and down on occasion, seems to be par for the corse with these transmissions. I currently have 50k on the car, had transmission service/AB conversion kit done at 35k and a transfer case fluid flush at 45K to try and resolve a slight buzzing noise that occurs at the end of each shift. You can only really hear the buzz during gears 2 and three 3 when it begins to shift around 2800rpm or when down shifting to accelerate away on the freeway. Transmission flush seemed to help temporarily, but noise came back, and transfer case flush did nothing. Incidentally, The transfer case(pun intended) was interesting. As instructed, my mechanic tried to do a transmission update after the transfer case flush, and it wouldn't take, he thought for a moment that an internal electronic shift component which takes a pounding from heat decided to take a you know what and die. At the time my mechanic was stressing because no matter what he did the update wouldn't take and there was no way he was going to call me back saying the car you brought me in good working order is now dead, and we're gonna need 3K to bring it back to life. So to his testament, he spent the next 48hrs sourcing and trying various firmware releases and calling all his landcover tech buddies/vendors and it looked like the worse had happened as it's pretty common for this internal electronic part of the transfer case to fail. He then called one of his smaller vendors who said he had seen this before and to try his firmware update. And sure enough, update took and car was good to go. Incidentally, I still have that buzzing noise, but there's not much else that can be done at this point unless whatever it is fails, throws a code or something. For the record, buzzing was prevalent with original tranny oil still in the car. Doesn't appear to be getting any worse, than it was 25k ago, but time will tell.

 

[Primetime]

Alright guys so here is an update on everything. The original shop is willing to take it in and give it a once over this upcoming Monday. Of course, at this point, I have very little faith in them, and I’ve been really beat up about the whole thing. It has gotten me to the point where I don’t think I will trust the truck even if things work out and I get it “fixed”. I did a lot of research on the ZF transmissions and came across Eriksson Industries in conn. that is a certified remanufacturer of the trannies. I called them and spoke with a very knowledgeable guy, Nat, who said that the issue I am probably dealing with is the adaptations reset. ZF themselves does not recommend resetting adaptations if the transmission has not been serviced in the past and is high mileage because the jolt of the new fluid/new parameters can spell disaster for worn parts. He told me the best option I have is to take it out onto a highway and follow the reset procedure “gingerly”. It consists of running from full stop through all of the gears (topping out at about 55mph) at about 15-20% throttle and then letting the truck coast to a stop. You do this 5 times and things should reset themselves for the most part and then continue to get better as things move along. So, I decided last night to go out and give it a try. It was tough to achieve in NJ, but at 3am I was able to do it for the most part on the highway. So, here is where we are at. By the final sequence the truck was doing surprisingly well... shifting at the right times and tightly. I was ecstatic and thought the nightmare was over, that is until I came back into town. Apparently she still has a “lot to learn”. The shifting in town is very erratic in the lighter gears both in accelerating and decelerating. It seems though, that that is the issue... the computer doesn’t know how to drive any longer and it is working with old equipment (clutches, solenoids, seals, etc). This is where I think the guy messed up... he should have known that they shouldn’t be reset and after he reset them he didn’t know what to do so he blamed it “on the way it came in”. Obviously he doesn’t want to be on the hook for a tranny for simply pressing a button so I get that. That being said, my final thought is that I am going to bring it back to him and see what we can work out. Hopefully he has some trick up his sleeve or a dyno (it’s a large transmission shop) that we can use to delicately teach an old dog new tricks. Unfortunately, I started this with I don’t trust her anymore...I’m in the market for another one I guess

 

[Pfunk951]

Let's see how it plays out.. Many times I've repaired a vehicle thinking I'd never trust it again, only to put the issue behind me and deem the car reliable again.. It just needs to get fixed, and build up some time with you not acting up..

Let's see how it comes back from round 2 with the shop..

Mike

 

[Azoo]

I'm wondering if this adaptation reset procedure would fix the rough shifts btw gears 2 and 3.

 

[jaguardoc504]

So to understand how a fluid replacement and adaptation reset can ruin a seemingly fine transmission. You have to understand how a clutch pack in an automatic transmission and subsequent wear of the clutch packs. As the transmission wears over time, the clutch pack materiel gets distributed into the trans fluid. This does two things. It takes up the tolerance of aging/wearing clutch packs, and helps the aging fluid keep the lubricating properties in line with the wear of the other parts in the transmission. When you drain this fluid that is filled with all kinds of clutch and metal particulates, you also drain the "glue" of an aging transmission. It is strongly recommended that when you do a fluid change, you do not reset adaptations as this also resets the shift engagement learning curves of the value block. These "adaptations" are learned through everyday driving, and modified over time. They take into account the severity of n engagement and ease the clutch pack engagement over time. This is why you may notice certain gear changes are worse than others, especially lower gears as they are used the most.
Aside from using the wrong fluid (which they did), and maybe an incorrect drain/fill procedure. There is not much fault that can be blamed on the shop who did the service. The reality is, parts wear out, fluid changes on higher mileage drive-line components can exacerbate the problem.
While you may be able to blame the shop, it may not be their problem and it would not hold up in court on a 100K mile vehicle.

 

[cperez]

When you drain this fluid that is filled with all kinds of clutch and metal particulates, you also drain the "glue" of an aging transmission. It is strongly recommended that when you do a fluid change, you do not reset adaptations

This is valuable information that should be in the LR wiki that we may someday compile...

 

[gsxr]

When you drain this fluid that is filled with all kinds of clutch and metal particulates, you also drain the "glue" of an aging transmission. It is strongly recommended that when you do a fluid change, you do not reset adaptations as this also resets the shift engagement learning curves of the value block.

I've heard this before, along with anecdotes of fluid changes killing automatic transmissions that were otherwise still working OK with very old, very dirty fluid (any brand, not necessarily LR / ZF). The part which I have trouble understanding is, the filter should remove all the clutch & metal particles that are speculated to be suspended in the old dirty fluid. I'm not saying the theory is wrong, but I do wonder if there's more to it somehow. Some engine oil filters have bypasses that allow dirty fluid to circulate if the filter gets full/clogged, but I've never seen a transmission designed like that - they typically force all fluid through the filter.

Aside from using the wrong fluid (which they did), and maybe an incorrect drain/fill procedure.

As I noted previously, I don't think the fluid used by this particular shop was "wrong", it was just a different brand, of the appropriate spec. We still don't know if they set the level properly when refilling - would need to check it now per factory procedure. The dealer, or a competent shop, could still check fluid level without further hosing things up.

The reality is, parts wear out, fluid changes on higher mileage drive-line components can exacerbate the problem.

I agree with this 1000%. Stuff wears out. Preventive maintenance is worth its weight in gold, IMO. We now know the fluid should be changed/replaced (ok, technically, drained+refilled, since you only get half the fluid out when draining) every 30-40kmi or so. As the second owner I don't know if the fluid has ever been done on my 119kmi LR4. Regardless, I'm going to drain & refill with Red Line D6 in the near future and see if that kills the tranny, which shifts perfectly now. I am not going to reset adaptations though!!

There is not much fault that can be blamed on the shop who did the service. ... While you may be able to blame the shop, it may not be their problem and it would not hold up in court on a 100K mile vehicle.

I have a feeling this is accurate. Although the response of the shop was poor, it would be difficult to prove negligence on their part. They should have said "I'm very sorry, please bring it back and we'll check it out".

 

[gsxr]

Related anecdote:

My only reference point is the Mercedes 722.9 (aka "NAG2") electronic seven-speed auto gearbox, which was used starting around 2007 or so, and is generally similar in design to the ZF six-speed box in the LR4. On these you can drain all the fluid because it has a converter drain plug, it gets 8-9 quarts of fresh fluid. But on the MB transmission, it's recommended to reset adaptations, and go through the "re-learn" procedure, which is similar to the ZF / LR process - basically driving on a level road at very light throttle through all upshifts, and coasting to a stop through all downshifts. I did this on mine (at 123kmi) with zero ill effects.

Reports in the MB world are usually that the MB trans shifts BETTER after resetting / relearning adaptations, with or without a fluid change, on both the 722.9 and the older 722.6 (NAG1) electronic five-speed trans. I find it bizarre that on the ZF box, the opposite is true. There must be a significant difference in either the mechanical design, or the software controlling the electronic valve body, between MB and ZF. (??)

I find it very interesting that ZF appears to recommend NOT resetting adaptations after draining / refilling the fluid, and changing the filter. This is excellent information, and I plan to follow it on my upcoming LR4 ATF service (DIY at home). I'd never have known without this excellent forum - you guys rock!

 

[jaguardoc504]

I've heard this before, along with anecdotes of fluid changes killing automatic transmissions that were otherwise still working OK with very old, very dirty fluid (any brand, not necessarily LR / ZF). The part which I have trouble understanding is, the filter should remove all the clutch & metal particles that are speculated to be suspended in the old dirty fluid. I'm not saying the theory is wrong, but I do wonder if there's more to it somehow. Some engine oil filters have bypasses that allow dirty fluid to circulate if the filter gets full/clogged, but I've never seen a transmission designed like that - they typically force all fluid through the filter.

Has more to do with the size of the particulate. Yes you are correct all fluid is passed through the filter. But eventually over time the filter's effectiveness to remove larger particulates is diminished, and fluid will be routed through the filter bypass. There is a point in every "sealed for life" transmission where none of the fluid will pass through the filter, as it is too clogged to do it's job effectively. Transmission filters are also not typically a cloth filter type, but rather a very fine mesh. This allows even larger particulates to pass through.
So take into account the filters does not filter larger particulates, and after a certain amount of wear none of the fluid pass through the filter. This time frame would vary widely depending on use, and environment.
What we do know for a fact, is that draining used fluid from a transmission removes a certain amount of "stuff" that reduces that transmissions ability to effectively take up tolerance. On average this is not a problem, however there are the often enough cases where this is enough to cause to blame the simple fluid/filter service as the culprit for sudden failures.
keep in mind oil filters typically have a rating of 5-20 micron filter rating 50%, where as a transmission filter is 25-100 microns at 40%. This has to do with the media type, and what is acceptable for the manufactuers... hence the term "OEM Spec". A lot of aftermarket, non-OEM suppliers, state thay are better than OEM. but given the range of requirements this is an impossible statement to verify.

Also as a side note, I do my LR4 driveline fluids every 50K.
I also do the engine oil every 5500 miles, and air filters every 10K.
I was a tech at LR and Jaguar in a previous life, and the problems that would come in that were avoidable by simple maintenance is mind boggling.