What makes you loyal?

[epiclr4]

Simple question.

What makes you loyal to the LR Brand? Or, what makes you not loyal to any brand for that matter?

 

[Quijote]

Not getting "burned." Good performance, good reliability where it matters, and owning up to issues.

I am very brand loyal (not yet to LR since I've had my new LR only a few months - so far so good).

 

[Finlayforprez]

I agree with Quijote above. I had a Discovery that was the biggest piece of crap ever manufactured, it was ridiculous. I took a LONG break from LR and then went back in 2011. Why? I am not sure, it's just the iconic design (which is going bye-bye), the off-road heritage, and quirky ways (I don't mean reliability issues here).

With that said, I don't particularly like that the brand has become so luxurious and appeals to the higher end crowd. I struggled a lot with this when I decided to end my 2011 LR4 lease early and buy a 2013. I contemplated going with a Toyota Land Cruiser, Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, or a slightly used Mercedes G. In the end, I really like how the LR looks when it is modified a bit, comfort, functionality, and capability. I will admit that I live in an area with lots of Land Rovers and I can't stand 98% of the drivers. Then again, I'm a big grouch.

 

[bushway9172]

The fact that I don't see another LR4 on mud tires every day...

 

[roverman]

What made me loyal is quickly disappearing. I've always like the brand because it was a tough and unique and reasonably priced (used) completely utilitarian vehicle that can do pretty much anything. But a used LR4 now costs nearly as much as a new LR3 did just a few years ago.

After 2 RR Classics, 2 RR P38s, and 2 LR3s, I can honestly say this might be my last. And I really hope it lasts forever because I LOVE it. I'm not crazy about not having solid axles but gladly trade them for the improved reliability. I have no interest in getting a 'fancier' version and it appears that it is the only direction LR is interested in, at least on these shores.

My first RR had 16" rims, I think they might have been 215s or 225s, and they would go through ANY amount of snow! I thought 18" rims were a stretch on the 3rd one. In another couple years, it will be 20" minimum. Just stupid, but i guess people are buying em. I'm not sure but my guess is that my next 4x4 will be a Jeep. Unless somehow they bring back the defender. The new RR is so amazingly generic looking, the sport is a ridiculous bathtub, and the new LRwhatevernumbertheywillgiveit is a shame. It's sad to me really, I've been such a fan and accepted the creeping changes over the years, but the end is closing in on me.

Whew, glad to get that off my chest!

 

[manoftaste]

What made me loyal is quickly disappearing. I've always like the brand because it was a tough and unique and reasonably priced (used) completely utilitarian vehicle that can do pretty much anything. But a used LR4 now costs nearly as much as a new LR3 did just a few years ago.

After 2 RR Classics, 2 RR P38s, and 2 LR3s, I can honestly say this might be my last. And I really hope it lasts forever because I LOVE it. I'm not crazy about not having solid axles but gladly trade them for the improved reliability. I have no interest in getting a 'fancier' version and it appears that it is the only direction LR is interested in, at least on these shores.

My first RR had 16" rims, I think they might have been 215s or 225s, and they would go through ANY amount of snow! I thought 18" rims were a stretch on the 3rd one. In another couple years, it will be 20" minimum. Just stupid, but i guess people are buying em. I'm not sure but my guess is that my next 4x4 will be a Jeep. Unless somehow they bring back the defender. The new RR is so amazingly generic looking, the sport is a ridiculous bathtub, and the new LRwhatevernumbertheywillgiveit is a shame. It's sad to me really, I've been such a fan and accepted the creeping changes over the years, but the end is closing in on me.

Whew, glad to get that off my chest!

I think you have summed it up for me.

For the longest time I wanted one. I picked up brochures (1998 Discovery, 2000 Range Rover, etc), read reviews, stared at their pictures, researched their 4wd systems, read that entire book issued by LR which talked about and compared various 4wd systems and said that how LR's is better and as are their push rod engines, read their press, etc, etc. And then one day (a few years later and after reaching a certain economic threshold) I was able to purchase a new one. An '06 LR3, that was my first ever Land Rover. I was ok with the 19 inch rims that came with my HSE because I had the option of purchasing the OEM 17" from LR.

Now 19 inch is bare minimum for my LR4, and as much as I want to venture out off road (not just recreational parks but places like Mojave etc), I am always a bit weary of slicing them or airing them down as there is practically no side wall to spare. I look at jeep and other SUVs on the road every now and then and notice how much side wall their tires have. I want LR to offer at least 17 or 18 inch rims (with the same/similar design and not deliberately crappy ones, have a look at the FFRR's 19 inch rim offering if you dont believe me). I don't want to buy third party solutions because I am not crazy about their designs. Plus, I'd rather have the comfort of knowing that LR has done full testing engineering wise.

If Jeep can still offer smaller diameter wheels for their SUVs, so can LR. Its just utter BS when I read/hear about the rotors size excuse. Take a look at BMW (X5 or even 750) wheels and rotors that how fat those discs are and are still within a smaller diameter wheels. LR, Learn from them. Dont skimp out on things like these to keep the cost low by trying to keep parts interchangeable between jags and rovers. Some of this compatibility is understandable from economic stand point but we are talking about SUVs and sedans here, two different beasts. Plus you are charging $60k for this truck for crying out loud. So please eat up some of the cost and put out a solid product like you did once in the past. Your customer base is a sophisticated one and is pretty hip to these things, unless the idea here is to move away from it all.

Without a doubt LR is totally going mainstream now (confirmed by the fact that MY15 LR4 will be offered with the running boards installed. Those running boards do not even look well integrated and they stick out so much on the sides that its ridiculous). But what adds insult to the injury is the fact that LR is not even interested in offering options like Jeep does for instance when it comes to customization, wheels size and different engines/motors.

With the new Discovery vision concept reveal, I might as well look into Audi or BMW when time comes to replace my LR4. At least I'll have better fit and finish and/or reliability.

What amazes me is that LRNA (and the "independent" press) still keeps talking about the off road heritage and prowess etc with respect to their current line up. Well, all that heritage is quite useless with those 22 inch wheels, isn't it. And all that clever electronics cannot make up for the inevitable laws of physics, its just that simple. On my way back home a couple of days ago, I stopped by my local dealership late at night just to check out whats in the showroom (LR4' new front end design, colors, etc.) I thought I was shocked to see the 245 width tires on an $80k base '14/'13 FFRR few days ago. But now I saw a brand new RRS parked outside (probably for demo) with 235 width tires, yes, 235. They looked pretty damn skinny on that vehicle. I dont think BMW would offer those even on the base X5 trim.

All this just goes to show the direction the brand itself is moving toward. More mainstream high end that is. Many things indicate that they do not necessarily care about the timelessness of their designs anymore. Even today an LR3 looks as beautiful, fresh, and current on the road as it did a decade ago when I first saw one back in 2004. Can the same be said for a 2011 RRS when compared with its 2013/14 iteration? Similarly, MY14 LR4's front refresh will seem outdated pretty soon, just as the 2010-2013 LR4' grille/front begins to look a bit dated now. The same cannot be said for LR3, or pre-LR3 Discovery. Why? Its the beauty of "Less is more", no-nonsense, minimalist design philosophy which once used to be the core DNA of all LR designs, but now has been tossed in favor of BLING that requires a design refresh every couple of years just to keep up with the current fads. The first victim of this change in design philosophy was the pre-MY13 FFRR' first front/grille refresh with that ridiculous pattern when they went from a clean horizontal grille to some hideous and conventional looking crowded pattern. Not sure what year it was.

LR IMHO will have a serious brand loyalty crisis at hand with this current direction, but they may be OK with it if they make more revenue by going more mainstream like any other automaker. They think (if they really care, that is) that they maybe able undo some of the damage and still keep their core audience by throwing the old loyalists a bone in the form of Defender. That may satisfy a certain niche of the camp, a rather smaller segment of the loyalists camp, I might add. What LR needs to understand is that a large part of their brand loyalists prefer both form and function but in a high end luxury package that LR vehicles once offered. Today, FFRR is nothing but an overly electronic fancy AWD sedan with a high center of gravity.

 

[Finlayforprez]

^ I actually think manoftaste hit the nail on the head for me in his above post. I know there are various opinions and feelings regarding the future of Land Rover, but I share many of the same thoughts as manoftaste. I still LOVE the look of the Discovery, Discovery II, and LR3. Don't get me wrong, I love my LR4, but I was never crazy about the blingy LED lights or art decco looking tail lights. I can live with it of course, and I covered the front with an ARB bumper.

I hope to keep my 2013 LR4 long term, otherwise, I am not sure I would stick with the brand. I am holding out to see the new Defender - perhaps that will make me want to jump on something new.

 

[manoftaste]

Also wanted to add that LR needs to give up worrying about what the press has to say about their designs, seriously. The press has absolutely no idea what automotive design is. They are always in need of writing something, anything, about a new model. They have to, its their job and thats what they do for living. But after being burnt, I take their comments/reviews with a grain of salt. Some of it is subjective I understand, but when I read comments like, more recently: "LR4's aging 5.0 V8", or "...LR4' old school body-on-frame platform" or in the past: "...power is sufficient (for LR3)", etc., it just goes to show how much they know, let alone knowing a thing or two about the automotive design decisions. I am willing to bet that majority of them have never gone to any industrial or product design school such as Pratt Institute or Cal Arts, etc. Moreover, If I am an automotive reviewer who personally owns or mostly reviews sedans and I have just reviewed a Honda Accord, and then I review an SUV the next day (only to go back to reviewing another sedan the following day) my driving impressions, sense of dynamics and feel, and experience for the day will be quite different, hence, and most likely, very much biased (in either direction) and that would reflect in my review. Its just being human, I feel the same when I jump from a sedan to my LR4, and back and forth.

I have mentioned elsewhere, IMHO, LR' integrated Body-Frame (IBF) was/is an excellent design and compromise for both on road comfort/driving dynamics and off road capability. I should not even call it a compromise as the IBF design actually complimented each other (on and off-road driving). You feel it during everyday driving, that rock solid, carved out of stone, one-piece feel. It was/is a perfect opportunity for LR to continue building on future off road vehicles (if they are still interested in things like off-road vehicles that is) while perfecting it and gaining reliability like the Land Cruiser/LX. And then there would a world market waiting for them. There is a reason why Toyota has left Land Cruiser' platform pretty much as is for decades now. Toyota just keep building on it and the proof is in the pudding. But LRNA never even advertised/marketed or cashed in on their own platform design (the only one in existence on the planet). Added weight of the IBF design should not have been seen as an issue as all that mass has many positives. Stability on freeways, that built like a tank feeling and sense of security on road (like you feel inside a Land Cruiser or LX), stability during windy situations during inclement weather, etc. I dont hear much chatter/complaints about the Land Cruiser' weight from the respected press.

The fuel economy concerns should have been addressed and dealt with advancement in engine/driveline technologies as far as LR4, and they were moving in the right direction with this gem of engines, the 5.0 V8. And could have offered lower power engines as options (that they could use in other models) to achieve better combined average EPA ratings. If Jeep can offer a 6.4 liter V8 alongside 3.6 and 3.0 liter V6s as well as things like 17" and 18" wheels, LR certainly can and should offer 5.0 V8, SCV8 (detuned maybe to keep the FF Bling Rover ahead of the pack) alongside a 3.0 V6 and 17"/18" wheels. Otherwise all that talk about being the off-road market leader is just utter rubbish and crap at this point in the game.

 

[Finlayforprez]

The one thing about Toyota is that they have a whole line of cars, SUVs, and trucks (and everything else) to fund their company. I think this is one of the reasons why they have been able to leave the Land Cruiser alone and keep it as a niche vehicle. Mercedes does something similar with the G wagen, it hasn't changed in many years. The same is not true for Land Rover, they don't have much of a line up, so I am not really against them making some of their line more mainstream, as long as they keep a model that is truly classic Land Rover. In other words, something very capable and iconic and utilitarian. Perhaps this is their plan for the upcoming Defender? I can only hope, but just not sure it will pan out like we would want a Defender. Who knows, maybe they will surprise us and we don't have to buy a Jeep, Land Cruiser, or G wagen.

 

[manoftaste]

The one thing about Toyota is that they have a whole line of cars, SUVs, and trucks (and everything else) to fund their company. I think this is one of the reasons why they have been able to leave the Land Cruiser alone and keep it as a niche vehicle. Mercedes does something similar with the G wagen, it hasn't changed in many years. The same is not true for Land Rover, they don't have much of a line up, so I am not really against them making some of their line more mainstream, as long as they keep a model that is truly classic Land Rover. In other words, something very capable and iconic and utilitarian. Perhaps this is their plan for the upcoming Defender? I can only hope, but just not sure it will pan out like we would want a Defender. Who knows, maybe they will surprise us and we don't have to buy a Jeep, Land Cruiser, or G wagen.

I can see that but also things have changed now since Tata owns the brand along with jaguar. So there is more room than before for funding and for sharing platforms/engines and such.

As far as a utilitarian and iconic model, my only concern is that it may not be as luxurious and nicely evolved (in terms of keeping up with times) as LR3/4 have been. It may or may not ride on a ladder frame platform, if it does, it will not have the nice on-road dynamics as LR4. If it goes the unibody route (you never know), it will not have the true off-road strength and assurance.

My fear is that they will do exactly what you are saying, a utilitarian and non-luxury model to shut some of us up as well as to barely hold on to that dwindling off-road heritage which may very well turn into history. But what I am hoping for is what you have mentioned in the form of a surprise.

Since LR wants Discovery to be its own line up, I hope they do not see it in competition with their own Range Rovers. With that thought, my dream LR would be a luxurious, built-like-a-tank, off and on-road vehicle (the way it used to be) riding on LR4' IBF (or similar) platform with a powerful V8 (with lower power engines as options if needed).

If they simply start with the current LR4, leave or improve upon the IBF, leave the master design as is and/or update/fix some bling elements, fix the fit and finish issues, update/revise the chassis to offer us the 16"/17"/18" wheels (like the current and older GX 460/70 offer) with wider tyre widths (up to 275 mm) with wheel/rim designs that do not suggest trim level step-downs, offer us more powerful V8 (stolen from RR), offer other needed goodies like adaptive dynamics (automatic variable suspension damping, etc, already in place in FFRR) maybe as part of option packs if the bean counters make noise, and then spend the rest of the attention on reliability issues (which are already getting better), then that just would be it. Oh yes, one more thing, they would seriously need to not give a damn and worry about the press' rants. If LR did the above, I am willing to bet it would out do the LX/Cruiser at least in the North American market.

I am making this bold statement based on the fact that LR4 already has more interior room, more advanced and silky smooth V8, better looks and design, better seats configuration (with full flat cargo floor capability), and better handling and driving dynamics than LX570/Land Cruiser. Whats left is what I have already described above: fit and finish, quality materials/trim pieces, and reliability improvement. That's certainly not a tall order. If LR takes care of these things, jacks up the price a little accordingly (still below the FFRR if they have to) and they will have one serious contender on the market and will have hard time fulfilling orders/demand, I can guarantee. Oh yes, one little teeny tiny thing, they will need to advertise their product a little (sarcasm intended) to let people know about it. Honestly, they have done such a poor job of advertising/marketing LR3/4 that its just plain ********.

And I forgot one of the most important things. LR will need to tidy up their dealerships' and Services' attitude toward customers. LR dealerships/service will need to stop being... we all know what. It is a prestige brand after all.