Steering wheel shake at 50-55 not wheel balancing problem.

Discussion in 'LR4' started by GeorgeYu27, Jul 31, 2019.

  1. ryanjl

    ryanjl Full Access Member

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    Dealers will quote the entire control arm as it's close to a wash at their labor rates between getting the old bushing out and just replacing the whole control arm.

    Replacing the whole control arm gets you two new bushings (front and rear) and a new ball joint. I had my whole control arms done at an independent mechanic with parts I supplied, but a lot of people have been happy and fine with just replacing the one bad bushing.
     
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  2. gsxr

    gsxr Full Access Member

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    Bushings vs control arm is a judgment call based on mileage & condition, IMO. Low milles / good condition, bushings alone may be fine. High miles / questionable condition, complete control arms may make sense for the reasons Ryan described above.

    I'm planning to replace the entire control arm with new OE (~$600/pair from discount dealers) since my LR4 has 122kmi and I'd rather not mess with pressing bushings at home as DIY. I've never done LR bushings but I've done them on other vehicles, and generally it isn't fun if you don't have the proper tools for the bushing replacement. I also suspect the labor would be more for a bushing R&R. (?)
     
  3. BeemerNut

    BeemerNut Full Access Member

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    "Running steely" rims raises a red flag with me as they do not spin true radially and axially vs any machined alloy rim provided either one hasn't smacked a curb.
    Steely's not spinning dead nuts allowing new tyres to eventually wear round wearing away the tread high spots more than low spots hence the wheels becoming slightly out of balance enough to feel shaking. Touch up balance correction at app 4-5K miles once worn round.
    Radial wheel balance is easy, it's getting the axial balance dead nuts preventing steering wheel shake with your hands left and right. Rocking coupling motion comes to mind like spinning a bicycle crank real fast by hand.
    LR's production hubs i've checked come out of balance, rotors a lot better assembled and balanced before going after wheel balancing.
    A couple large local tyre shops did not have the proper fitting cones plus what they did have fit sloppy on the machine's arbor being worn from use. The fixed back cup on the arbor not able to contact the rim seating area on the D1's 165 mm bolt circle alloy rims to mount and spin true plus not able to remount again with repeated perfect "zero" balance every time. Rubbish at best.
    Ended up machining a 3/8" thick steel disc with a 1.125" snug fitting bore to the tyre machine's arbor, the OD machined snug fit to the rim's concentric lip cured one problem. The steel disc then screwed to a 3/16" thick aluminum disc of 9" diameter to mount against the flat cup on the back of the wheel balancing arbor, second mounting problem corrected. Rims mounted spinning true as if stationary plus repeatable zero balance removed and reinstalled on the machine several times. Finally time to mount tyres and properly mount on the wheel balancing machine.
    Mounted another spare D1 hub assembly on a stand that I can spin up wheels with a "Shoe" motor of years ago. Wheel hanging in the air will show and feel any slight imbalance being spun vs loaded down. Spare 11/16" hardened and ground axle with hub and wheel weighing 58 pounds on the DIY motorcycle wheel balancer, only takes a tin valve cap of 1.8 grams to throw the wheel out of balance. Indoor no wind or draft allowed test. Turbine smooth down the highway, removed the not needed steering dampener 20 years ago.
    Worn out suspension problems not encountered with solid axles at both ends...~~=o&o>....
     
  4. itiosso

    itiosso Member

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    Reading all of this reminded me of my FJ Cruiser days when folks would put steelies on their trucks and have a lot of issues with balancing.
    So I second the post above mine. Could be something to look into as well.
     
  5. BeemerNut

    BeemerNut Full Access Member

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    From what I gather LR4's still used the flat washer w/ parallel bodied lug nuts for their alloy rims which also has a cone seat end used when installing a "steely" spare wheel which has cone seated stud holes. Ugly looking sticking out but gets you home.
    https://www.partsgeek.com/bqmcz4g-l...utm_content=MP&utm_campaign=PartsGeek+Bing&gb
    No problem centering any rim of cone seat rim design, the same with an alloy rim with the flat washer LR lugs securing the rim to the hub with the rim's Hub Centric centering with the hub's Hub Centric lip. Even adding a 1/8" thickness or less wheel spacer still allowing rim to Hub Centric engagement your good relying on the Hub Centric for alignment as well weight stress transfer.
    You by any chance installed wheel spacers to your LR4?
    Lucky8's LR4 Terrafirma's spacers as example;
    https://www.partsgeek.com/bqmcz4g-l...utm_content=MP&utm_campaign=PartsGeek+Bing&gb
    If running them like I purchased from Lucky8 for the 95 D1 they use cone seated nuts securing the spacers to the vehicle's hub. The spacer's ID is larger diameter than the hub. Now all wheel stresses are handled by the wheel studs vs directly to the spacer then to the hub. On a good note spacer centering is maintained by the cone seated nuts. Alloy rim to spacer's Hub Centric lip not possible at all being the spacer's Hub Centric lip segments, 5 of them now fit perfectly between the rim's clearance gaps around the stub axle flange wings and retaining bolts. Bolt head flats must face outwards following hub circumference no bolt head points sticking out. Add metric wavy washer for proper torque plus bolt flat location. Only way to keep the rim centered now by the parallel bodies of the flat washer lug nuts which have loose clearance inside the alloy rim's lug nut bores.
    This clearance with rim's weight pulling downwards (gravity), tighten lug nuts, rotate rim 180 degrees, loosen lug nuts again. Rim falls downwards until contacting the lug nut's opposite parallel bodies again. This lifting the rim full up and down amounts to 1.97 ounces imbalance difference using flat washer parallel body lug nuts now shaking wheels all four.
    Rim loading stresses to Terrafirma wheel spacer on the 95 D1 is now going through the spacer's wheel studs not one of the five concentric segment Hub Centric helping with centering or transfering load stresses.
    Yup a shaker as others mentioned with stock alloy rims until making stainless shim rings of the correct thickness that wrap around every lug nut for a nice "slide fit" the lug nuts through the rim bores now centering the rims with these Terrafirma 30 mm wheel spacers. Turbine smooth down the highway.

    With your "steely" rims I would of mounted and torqued each of them down on a hub, added a magnetic base with arm "almost touching" the rims spinning then checking to see if they are round, egg shaped, eccentric, have a hump or flat spots at the tyre seating area radially. Second checking the beads inboard and outboard for variations in rim width as well axial rim wobble.
    Steel rims walk all around from the centers being welded besides the bead and circumference under stress and warping "WITHIN FACTORY TOLERANCES" one can only hope.
    Take a worn out sloppy ball jointed tie rod ended suspended "Chebbie" Pick 'Em UP with properly balanced, true running rims and tyres, (normal bad shocks) it will glide down the highway without your wheel shaking problems. Fear any highway expansion joint putting you into a high speed wheel wobble and a ditch.
    BTW, I find that LR's hubs without discs a 90% chance come out of balance, disc's a lot better requiring balancing corrections......~~=o&o>........
     
  6. fozzie

    fozzie New Member

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    check brake disc runout as a warped disc will cause steering flutter
     
  7. BeemerNut

    BeemerNut Full Access Member

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    Been doing brake (not break) jobs over 54 years, never heard, this first time reading of "flutter".

    A warped disc if warped so bad that your feeling it when driving not touching the brakes would about rip the steering wheel out of your hands if the brakes were applied. Floating calipers not floating anymore, lack of proper servicing. Pads with uneven wearing inboard vs outboard of the rotors, get a clue, never happen with many vehicle owners.
    A "warped disc" while driving would force both pads with pistons away from the rotors until clearance was established a much wider clearance than with true running rotors on both sides of the rotors. This condition would cause the brake pedal to go way down or even hitting the floor requiring pumping the brakes before creating any hydraulic pressure stopping the vehicle.
    Anyone driving such a vehicle I won't mention or type what I think of them not wanting to be banned from this forum.
    Another problem, rare but can happen especially with vented rotors after braking hard from a high speed freeway exit or long down hill mountain road then forced to stop in 12-14" deep standing water as by Highway Patrol as example . Rotors ended up swelling 0.005" to 0.008" in thickness the submerged sections from the thermal shock treatment.
    Pulsing pedal big time requiring a light skim cut just enough to establish full machined contact only allowing for normal braking again. This happened to me plus other vehicles after coming down a long steep mountain pass. Not a fan of cutting any rotors including the solid non vented rotors on the 95 D1 which are now 20 years old with 116K miles with plenty of service life to go. Very little mountain braking with the manual 5 speed tranny.
    Those LR owners ripping around hilly mountains roads riding the brakes hard to the point of smelling their brakes or others then playing submarine with their LR's has me thinking, fresh batch of warped and swelled vented rotors coming up......~~=o&o>......
     
  8. fozzie

    fozzie New Member

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    as a retired truck driver with more than 2 million miles under my belt and having repaired as well as driven i am suprised by beemernuts almost derogatory response , it was just a suggestion of something to check as it appears that almost everything else has been looked at , i have 55 years of experience in motor engineering and truck driving and was taught never assume anything , check, check and then check again
     
  9. BeemerNut

    BeemerNut Full Access Member

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    The 69 F250 (3/4 ton Ford) pickup now has over a million miles on it, yup it's still racking up miles today. Bloody old Norton has over 179K miles and still alive.

    Sorry fozzie if my "almost derogatory response" had stuck a nerve with you being across the pond vs us Yanks in the USA. It must be a Limey "flutter" expression or word used for a "cause steering flutter" which I and others are not aware of here in America. Finding the "propeller shaft" when I don't even own a boat, engine under the "Bonnet" or "boot" other learning curve examples of your different language.
    Being a licensed aircraft and engine mechanic since 1974 (FAA A&P) rebuilding C130 turboprop engines plus gear reduction drive cases, 2800 Pratt & Whitney radial engines including test stand break in certification years ago. I found over the years working on a friend's 1967, 2003 and 2016 Peterbilt tractors and tanker trailers rather crude blundering pigs to maintain only requiring brute force not the delicate touch of hand we apply to aviation. Can't pull off the road after an engine failure just after takeoff.
    Reminds me of helping clearing water out of a Austin diesel's taxi fuel system outside of London helping the poor cabbie of low mechanical abilities getting the diesel running and us to the airport then stuck in your "storm of the century" after playing submarine with the taxi in jolly old England back in the 1980's. You must be 260 kilometers west of London I recall while driving on holiday until the big storm struck the UK? I was up north at Newcastle when the winds exceeded 53 mph by my wind meter before heading back to London. Slept in the airport as no CLEAN UNDAMAGED planes to board and fly out in.

    Your "check, check then check again" reply reminded me of this quote;
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"
    Albert Einstein. Toast to the Queen Mum 'ol chap......~~=o&o>......
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
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  10. gleung

    gleung New Member

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    I suppose a warp disk would shake worse on your steering wheel when you apply light braking at moderate speed.
    if that's not the case I'd look into tyre / wheels. (as other geometry steering related components been looked after)
    sometime you get hints from your tyre wear pattern.
     

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